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preventing and overcoming a hard mouth

Jamie

Senior Member
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Ohio
I wasn't sure where to place this question, but I'm looking for training ideas/tips on how to keep Slick from turning into a squirrel muncher. Lefty is terrible for this as was his mother, and my struggle to break him of this continues, but there is still hope for Slick, I think. Probably still up to me whether or not he can learn to handle and even retrieve dead rats with a soft mouth. He respects the tone and my verbal command to "drop" so far, but I see signs of him being more and more excited and aggressive when a squirrel hits the ground. I fucked it up with Lefty because I didn't know better. so what do you bird hunters do to train your retrievers and pointers to go easy on your dead birds?
 

"J"

Git Off My Lawn
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Interesting thread Jamie, I'm wondering if it's a breed thing and something that can be taught or something that is going to be a punishment for bad behavior thing.... My older beagle carried a rabbit to the truck while I walked beside her, she seemed like a fish outta water the whole way..... She chomped it a few times initially and then that was it, just carried it.... She was very apprehensive the whole way like WTF am I doing.... Would this help for your two dogs? From what I saw yesterday with my buddies fiest, I doubt it... That dog hates squirrels.....


 

bowhunter1023

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Lulu will carry an egg around without busting it for hours and Remi always had a soft mouth; both dogs just came that way. Hunted with my buddy last weekend and his dog all but eats birds before she brings them back. That said, I have never personally trained this and I'm sure Jim will have some great advice. I've been lucky to have dogs with genetics that prevented the need to train this, so I also need to learn. My methodology for dogs is to error on the side of being too heavy handed, so as a general approach, when they fuck up, I make sure it sucks for them as a result. I only do this when being able to catch a dog in the act. With a heavy hand or an e-collar, I had success breaking both dogs of bad habits. Obviously you guys understand that approach and it's not for everyone. My buddy who has the dog that eats birds, never disciplines her despite having an e-collar. His trainer told him the collars were to use for "mild positive reinforcement" and not to use it as a negative consequence. Maybe I'm a total moron, but I could have sworn they were for discipline!

Good luck Jamie. I'll be following along as well. Some day I imagine I'll need to deal with this also.
 

brock ratcliff

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I think it's a genetic thing, but you are doing what you should to break the habit, imo. Out bird dogs are very gentle with dead birds. I have however seen them rip live chickens to shreds. I don't have a clue how much electricity it would take to stop that as they are completely deaf when they go into that mode, similar to Lefty on a squirrel. Sorry I'm of no help, but I can't even make a beagle stay where I want them to!
 

Jamie

Senior Member
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Ohio
I think anyone who gets a tree dog that just naturally has a soft mouth is plain lucky. this is not the sort of thing that they are typically bred for, but they are plenty smart and trainable enough to do it. I once witnessed my buddies uber awesome squirrel dog swim a swollen creek with dead rat in his mouth and bring it to Dean. he swam the creek, treed it. no way we could get across without swimming ourselves, but Dean shot it anyway, and dog brought it. I couldn't believe what I saw. both of my dogs will retrieve a ball or stick all day long and really bring it back and give it to me, so with some work, I think I can train Slick to bring them to me, but first he needs to learn how to handle them. Lefty is probably a lost cause. all of our Labs brought us unscathed duck eggs at one time or another with no training to that end whatsoever.
 

brock ratcliff

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That is the point I did not make very well... I don't think it's in their nature but with patience and continued electro therapy, I think he will stop chewing on them.
 

Wmiller07

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My lab likes to chew some. I would put a toy in my hand and put it in her mouth and when she would clamp down I would yell ow loudly. She would immediately jump back and I would then say gentle and she would take the ball back gently. So now when I throw something for her to retrieve I yell gentle to her as she comes back. It seems to help on the chewing.
 

jagermeister

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Jamie, have you looked into the concept of "Force Fetch" yet? It is predominantly a piece of the training process for Retriever breeds, but I don't see why it wouldn't also work for treeing dogs. Any dog that with retrieve can be force fetched.

The entire process of force fetch can be relatively long and tedious (weeks) but the first portion of it, teaching the "hold" command, could be very useful for your dog(s). One could argue that the process should be called force hold instead of force fetch... But that's beside the point. I'm going to make this incredibly brief, but basically you out the dog up on a platform or table, away from other distractions and remove the ability to get away. You start by putting an inanimate object in the dog's mouth and teach the word "hold." Put it in the mouth, say "hold", good dog. Etc. Teach that word. Once they know it, you start to incorporate pressure. An ear pinch while holding the collar with pinky and ring finger works well. Pinch and hold ear, say "hold", when dog reaches for object and holds, release pressure from the ear. Essentially you're teaching an "OFF'' switch to the dog... Do as I say and the pressure goes away. If the dog tries to spit the object before you tell him to, you're ready with a swift well-timed ear pinch... "No"... "Hold." The eventual goal is the dog grabs something when you say hold (eventually transitioning to the word "fetch") and doesn't release the object until you say so... No exceptions.

You're probably wondering, well what the hell does this have to do with a hard mouth? It's an indirect benefit of the process of done correctly. While training hold or force fetch, you should also insist the dog develops good hold habits... I.e. not rolling the object around, not chomping down, not playing with it, etc. This is where it can get tricky. Some dogs, especially those that have bad habits to start with, can have difficulty grasping this concept. My dog was that way. Start by using a GLOVED hand as the object. Put your hand in the dog's mouth. You can feel whether the dog is actually holding it or if it's just simply allowing to put something in it's mouth. There is a difference. Once you establish the corrections and the dog knows whether it's fucking up or not, you can move on to other types of objects. I particularly like objects that aren't balanced... Like a hammer. A dog cannot roll a hammer around in it's mouth without dropping it, due to the heavy weight at one end. That have to actually HOLD it by the handle in a consistent manner in order to avoid getting the ear pinch. Plain and simple.

I know I'm getting long winded now so I'll wrap this up. You can google force fetch for days... Literally. I think it's worth your time to look into it. You have to slowly teach this concept to the dog. It won't happen in a day or likely in a week. But once it knows what the force fetch process is all about, you then have a TOOL available for when he slips up in the field and starts munching on a squirrel. Set him on a log and start going through FF with that damn squirrel... He will eventually understand that his job is to grab it and bring it back to you, and hold it until you say not to, and that it doesn't involve ANYTHING other than that extra... No playing, chewing, eating, whatever.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Those were just the footnotes, so fire away if you have any questions.
 

jagermeister

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Here's a young girl I was starting on FF last week. What she's holding is a "force fetch block" that is commercially available, but isn't totally necessary. Keep in mind that the dog needs to be pretty solid on basic obedience before attempting this. If it won't sit still when and where you tell it to, the FF process is the last of your worries. This dog in the picture is just over 7 months old and has had a decent start with obedience training.

 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Jamie, as you know, I'm no expert on anything...do you think the summer time tail treats might be part of the problem? Kinda like someone giving me a beer and expecting me not to drink it...I'm sure I'd need some electric therapy to stop that. I guess my point is, how is the dog to know when it's ok to eat them?
 
As far as curs being soft mouthed or not I think it depends on individual dog and how their parents were. I had a mt cur named Saber he was pretty soft mouthed. He wasn't interested in anything dead. I couldn't even get him to play with hides. He would hunt well until the game was dead or quickly dispatch it. After that he could careless about it. My dad's mt curs Lance and Star out of the same litter as Saber were hard mouthed. they would also try to eat squirrels and raccoons as soon as they were dead. Those two dogs were trained on leave it and that worked out well enough. If i hunted saber with lance and star he would always start a fight at the tree. My beloved black mouth cur bell was soft mouthed and would retrieve on command. My current catahoula lacey is also soft mouthed she either won't retrieve or will drop it about half way to you. Either way she will run the rest of the way back to me and be very happy when she getsgt there. I did some really stern recall training with her when she was 8 months old so that may play a part. Curs are weird.
 

Jamie

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Ohio
good stuff fellas. thanks. I'll look into that, Jägermeister. seems like that is the track I need to be on. Giles, Lefty isn't trying to "eat" them, per se. he is "killing" them for me, but so violently that he has rendered a couple inedible. Even squirrels with their brains blown out, literally, are usually still twitching when they hit the ground, and if he sees this, he grabs and shakes them viciously. he will drop them, but the damage is usually done by then. His mother was even worse than he is. Tom, I think a disinterest in dead critters, like Sabre's, is the best case scenario. I don't mind them chewing one up a bit if it needs to be dispatched, but after it's dead, I want them to ignore it.
 

hickslawns

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I think it's a genetic thing, but you are doing what you should to break the habit, imo. Out bird dogs are very gentle with dead birds. I have however seen them rip live chickens to shreds. I don't have a clue how much electricity it would take to stop that as they are completely deaf when they go into that mode, similar to Lefty on a squirrel. Sorry I'm of no help, but I can't even make a beagle stay where I want them to!

Not sure how mine would do on a dead game bird. I can definitely relate on the chickens. lmao

There is a zone or mode he enters that is like flipping a switch. Jekyl and Hyde sorta thing.
 

jagermeister

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Great stuff Jim.

I was told not to FF your own dog. Thoughts on that?
I'm far from being an expert on the subject, but I've FF'd a few dogs and I would totally 100% disagree with that theory. As with anything else training related, if not done properly you can do some damage to a dog and affect your bond in a negative way. But there's a fair amount of wiggle room training a pup since they're memories are relatively short, so screwing up that bad is tough to do. IMO, putting your own dog through FF can actually strengthen your bond, in an indirect way. You'll learn things about your dog going through this process that you may not normally learn. You find out exactly how your dog handles pressure and adversity, and that information is priceless when it comes to training more advanced concepts.
 

Jackalope

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I can't be of any help on this one. The only hunting dogs I've had experience with are coon dogs. Every coon dog I've ever had showed zero mercy on a coon. Probably didn't help that I love to shoot em in the ass and roll them out 100% still alive. A good coon dog doesn't tree and hold because it's fun, he does it because he absolutely hates them with a visceral passion.
 

5Cent

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I am also a fan of force fetch. As mentioned above, it has to be done correctly to change a dog or it can come back to bite ya. Been almost 10yrs since I quit working with dogs after putting Bodacious down (shown below) right after college, but he and Layla (chocolate that followed Bo) both responded well to FF tactics. Somehow these are the only digital pictures I have of either. I was too poor or phone camera technology must not have been that great for the Pickerel Creek and Castalia farm land success we had during those days lol.

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