Article on canned hunts

[bowhunter1023]

I think what Mike thinks the problem is that people will start looking at records skeptically. Kind of like doping in sports records.

Except that both of the guys he just named are people 99% of the members of this site have never heard of without Google'n their names. I don't see it as a wide spread issue, but I'm not in the click either...

 

[mrex]

Another little known Ben Franklin trueism..."when the people find they can buy themselves into the record book, it will herald the end of the legitimacy of record keeping!"

Sure, some people have better places to hunt than others and that can be bought. However, the hunting is still fair chase. That's not the same as stepping into a pen. In the 55 year history of the BBBC, we've removed several entries due to improprieties of the harvest. The club bylaws state that any future entry from the hunter in question will be denied but we don't go back and pull previous entries. Rob McCarely is the first and only guy to have all his entries yanked.

 

[Ohiosam]

Ok there are a couple of incidences of people getting caught entering deer fraudulently. Does anyone doubt there are bucks that made the books that are frauds?

 

[bowhunter1023]

Ok there are a couple of incidences of people getting caught entering deer fraudulently. Does anyone doubt there are bucks that made the books that are frauds?

No. However I would argue that clubs like P&Y and B&C are still in great shape. If the sky is falling, I've not seen anything of it until Mike's statement early in this thread. I'm not doubting that fraudulent deer have been entered, nor I am doubting there are fraudulent deer still in the books. What I'm looking for a is a current trend showing this to be an issue. We've been pointed at a couple isolated incidences, one that took place before some members of this forum were even born. What McCarely did does not make me think less of the OBBC. I won't enter a deer I kill in any of the books and it has nothing to do with any knucklehead cheat that "tainted" the books for his own pride...

 

[mrex]

Ok there are a couple of incidences of people getting caught entering deer fraudulently. Does anyone doubt there are bucks that made the books that are frauds?

No...but there varying degrees of crime like jaywalking and bank robbery. Shooting a buck at 5:07 pm when legal shooting light is 5:06 pm is jaywalking. Shooting a buck in a preserve with a rifle, taking it to another county or state and checking it in as a fair chase bow kill and then entering it in the state record book is equivelent to child molestation.

The reason performance enhancing drugs are such a big deal in profesional sports is the neagtive impact on the legitamacy of the game and past records.

 

[mrex]

No. However I would argue that clubs like P&Y and B&C are still in great shape. If the sky is falling, I've not seen anything of it until Mike's statement early in this thread. I'm not doubting that fraudulent deer have been entered, nor I am doubting there are fraudulent deer still in the books. What I'm looking for a is a current trend showing this to be an issue. We've been pointed at a couple isolated incidences, one that took place before some members of this forum were even born. What McCarely did does not make me think less of the OBBC. I won't enter a deer I kill in any of the books and it has nothing to do with any knucklehead cheat that "tainted" the books for his own pride...

I didn't mean to infer that the sky is falling. My point was that as the popularity of these "shooting preserves" increases, it creates a greater exposure for fraud. I sincerely hope Brocks buddy is correct about the trend in pen hunting. I know the deer farming industry is still going full speed ahead.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Child Molestation?.... You value your book a whole lot more than most!

 

[bowhunter1023]

Would Texas then not be a hot spot for this kind of fraud? What's the case rate out of there these days?

 

[finelyshedded]

That BF trueism is so true! It is why this country is approaching 20 trillion in debt too, IMO.

Lol when Mike through out Noel Feathers name! Anyone remember that tool saying on a video with Dan Fitzgerald(another tool), "When I designed my grunt call, I told them that I wanted it to sound like a pig." Rotflmao

Our buddies, Ron and I thought when we first saw this back when he just made "whitetail fame", "When you are designing it, why don't you make it sound like a pig?!? Rotflmao

I'm sure there are some hunters who needrecognition for killing a deer and will go to any length to reach that goal. I'm sure there are violators in all three books. IMO

 

[Gordo]

People cheat in all Aspects of life, and are always coming up with new ways to do it. That's never going to change. Its sad that people feel the need to do so

 

[Lundy]

People cheat in all Aspects of life, and are always coming up with new ways to do it. That's never going to change. Its sad that people feel the need to do so

It is partially the record books themselves that fuel this desire to cheat.

I knew Rob, he was in our bowhunting club for years. He always seemed to kill a great buck each year. We attributed part of it to the access he had to a lot of prime Scioto river bottom farmland, he was a farmer.

Later is was exposed how he was always killing these great bucks. He somehow felt that by killing these bucks that it somehow elevated him above others as a hunter. It fed his personal ego and I guess some personal need for being put in some position of admiration from others.

In hunting today, there is a huge emphasis on killing bigger antlers, on this site, every site, hunting shows, magazines, it is the primary measurement of success for many. All should be careful that they never fall to the pressure that much of the industry and other hunters apply to them.

I am 100% confident that there are a lot of hunters that would like to "be like Mike" and may find themselves at some point compromising their own beliefs to try achieve that status.

I think hunters need to step back every so often and ask themselves why they hunt and hopefully it is for more than trying to better there fellow hunters.

As far as "canned hunts" the difference to me is the fence. Doesn't really matter to me if it is 10 acres or 10,000 acres. If the deer does not have the ability to exercise choice in staying on or leaving a property is the primary determination for me to differentiate between "canned" and fair chase.

 

[bowhunter1023]

In hunting today, there is a huge emphasis on killing bigger antlers, on this site, every site, hunting shows, magazines, it is the primary measurement of success for many.

I'd beg to differ on that front. I'd like to think people like Fluteman, Redcloud, myself and a handful of others are viewed as respected and successful hunters on this site. Yet none of us have ever killed anything worth writing home about in the antler department. If you think shooting deer with big antlers is what fuels things around here, you are sadly mistaken. I agree that outside of these walls, that is often what "makes the man". However TOO is not a place where shooting a big buck elevates you above someone else. What matters is the quality of the person sitting behind the deer whether it be 100" or 200". I'll pick on Greg one last time. He is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable bowhunters I know and I respect the hell out of him as a hunter and as a man. Sadly, he is also one of the unluckiest people I know. It matters not to me that he's never killed an OBB or a B&C qualifier, I'd still hunt with him any day of the week and listen to whatever advice he has to give. I'm not alone in that regard either as there are dozens of members here who will agree with me on that front. It takes far more than killing big deer to be a respected member of this community...

 

[Beentown]

It is partially the record books themselves that fuel this desire to cheat.

I knew Rob, he was in our bowhunting club for years. He always seemed to kill a great buck each year. We attributed part of it to the access he had to a lot of prime Scioto river bottom farmland, he was a farmer.

Later is was exposed how he was always killing these great bucks. He somehow felt that by killing these bucks that it somehow elevated him above others as a hunter. It fed his personal ego and I guess some personal need for being put in some position of admiration from others.

In hunting today, there is a huge emphasis on killing bigger antlers, on this site, every site, hunting shows, magazines, it is the primary measurement of success for many. All should be careful that they never fall to the pressure that much of the industry and other hunters apply to them.

I am 100% confident that there are a lot of hunters that would like to "be like Mike" and may find themselves at some point compromising their own beliefs to try achieve that status.

I think hunters need to step back every so often and ask themselves why they hunt and hopefully it is for more than trying to better there fellow hunters.

As far as "canned hunts" the difference to me is the fence. Doesn't really matter to me if it is 10 acres or 10,000 acres. If the deer does not have the ability to exercise choice in staying on or leaving a property is the primary determination for me to differentiate between "canned" and fair chase.

Yep

 

[mrex]

It is partially the record books themselves that fuel this desire to cheat.

I knew Rob, he was in our bowhunting club for years. He always seemed to kill a great buck each year. We attributed part of it to the access he had to a lot of prime Scioto river bottom farmland, he was a farmer.

Later is was exposed how he was always killing these great bucks. He somehow felt that by killing these bucks that it somehow elevated him above others as a hunter. It fed his personal ego and I guess some personal need for being put in some position of admiration from others.

In hunting today, there is a huge emphasis on killing bigger antlers, on this site, every site, hunting shows, magazines, it is the primary measurement of success for many. All should be careful that they never fall to the pressure that much of the industry and other hunters apply to them.

I am 100% confident that there are a lot of hunters that would like to "be like Mike" and may find themselves at some point compromising their own beliefs to try achieve that status.

I think hunters need to step back every so often and ask themselves why they hunt and hopefully it is for more than trying to better there fellow hunters.

As far as "canned hunts" the difference to me is the fence. Doesn't really matter to me if it is 10 acres or 10,000 acres. If the deer does not have the ability to exercise choice in staying on or leaving a property is the primary determination for me to differentiate between "canned" and fair chase.

I disagree Kim. Shouldering part of the blame on record books is akin to tying guns to violent crime or forks to obesity. A hunters moral compass is the root cause...period.

I agree with Gordo. The hunting community mirrors the general population and so does this forum and all the others that I visit.

 

[Lundy]

I'd beg to differ on that front. I'd like to think people like Fluteman, Redcloud, myself and a handful of others are viewed as respected and successful hunters on this site. Yet none of us have ever killed anything worth writing home about in the antler department. If you think shooting deer with big antlers is what fuels things around here, you are sadly mistaken. I agree that outside of these walls, that is often what "makes the man". However TOO is not a place where shooting a big buck elevates you above someone else. What matters is the quality of the person sitting behind the deer whether it be 100" or 200". I'll pick on Greg one last time. He is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable bowhunters I know and I respect the hell out of him as a hunter and as a man. Sadly, he is also one of the unluckiest people I know. It matters not to me that he's never killed an OBB or a B&C qualifier, I'd still hunt with him any day of the week and listen to whatever advice he has to give. I'm not alone in that regard either as there are dozens of members here who will agree with me on that front. It takes far more than killing big deer to be a respected member of this community...

I don't disagree with what you have said, however no one can deny that one of the primary, maybe the primary, pinnacles of measured success, driving the conversation around here is big bone on top of the head of the deer.

The pictures are shared in the trail cam pics, they are in the avatars of members, there are hunting contests that provide emphasis on antler size, antler size drives much of the excitement. I am NOT saying that is bad, I also strive to kill mature bucks. It only becomes potentially bad when the quest for antler size is the primary driving motivation and not just a portion of the hunting experience. That can lead to a slippery slope where the desire for results at all costs could blur the line between right and wrong.

 

[bowhunter1023]

I agree with Gordo. The hunting community mirrors the general population and so does this forum and all the others that I visit.

Really? I hate it when someone says something stupid and I can't speak my mind...

 

[mrex]

I don't disagree with what you have said, however no one can deny that one of the primary, maybe the primary, pinnacles of measured success, driving the conversation around here is big bone on top of the head of the deer.

The pictures are shared in the trail cam pics, they are in the avatars of members, there are hunting contests that provide emphasis on antler size, antler size drives much of the excitement. I am NOT saying that is bad, I also strive to kill mature bucks. It only becomes potentially bad when the quest for antler size is the primary driving motivation and not just a portion of the hunting experience. That can lead to a slippery slope where the desire for results at all costs could blur the line between right and wrong.

I've never participated in any deer contests on any forum although I do believe hunting is a competition sport. The competition being between the hunter and the hunted.

 

[mrex]

Really? I hate it when someone says something stupid and I can't speak my mind...

Really...and something stupid and something you disagree with are sometimes 2 different things.

 

[Beentown]

I don't disagree with what you have said, however no one can deny that one of the primary, maybe the primary, pinnacles of measured success, driving the conversation around here is big bone on top of the head of the deer.

The pictures are shared in the trail cam pics, they are in the avatars of members, there are hunting contests that provide emphasis on antler size, antler size drives much of the excitement. I am NOT saying that is bad, I also strive to kill mature bucks. It only becomes potentially bad when the quest for antler size is the primary driving motivation and not just a portion of the hunting experience. That can lead to a slippery slope where the desire for results at all costs could blur the line between right and wrong.

Again....yep.

 

[Milo]

stupidity is a matter of perspective.