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23-24 Proposed Deer season changes

Hedgelj

Senior Member
Supporting Member
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Mohicanish

Nothing really of note imo
 

LonewolfNopack

Junior Member
1,503
127
The woods
I honestly expected to see some changes to bag limits due to EHD. I’m actually really surprised by that. I guess I should not be. If they aren’t there we can’t kill ‘em.
Not enough people complained to the people that mattered, its that simple. The fact is most hunters just like to bitch about a problem but always expect someone else to be the sharp end of the pencil. I think this can be applied to mankind in general, but I'm really starting to think that deer hunters are some of the most lazy people around. Another thing to consider, even in the hardest hit EHD counties, the kill was only slightly down. I can only imagine how much the kill/ hours hunted ratio went up in those counties last year. I think the average hunter just doesn't give a dam and isnt smart enough to self regulate. On paper though it looks like EHD didn't have much of an impact. Its the unrecorded metrics that really matter or should at least.
 
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giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Let's see what happens after shed season. Alot of people are going to find their target bucks and deer skulls. The main properties I hunt got hit after the season opened. I don't care to go look as I know it will only upset me. No one else cares about those problems. They are mine to deal with.
 

ThatBuckeyeGuy

Active Member
943
46
Ohio
Oh come on buddy, you know even if they did we'd never know it. They're going to shape the narrative to fit their agenda no matter what. Your complaint will be ignored in the order it was received.
That's how I see it. They could care less about the damaged / affected areas. The only place they care about are the cities where the deer are abundant and slamming into people's fancy cars and eating there precious gardens . Those are the people they care to please not your typical hunter that's concerned about the herd.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
That's how I see it. They could care less about the damaged / affected areas. The only place they care about are the cities where the deer are abundant and slamming into people's fancy cars and eating there precious gardens . Those are the people they care to please not your typical hunter that's concerned about the herd.

They don't even really give a shit about those people bud. It's all about cost avoidance of big insurance companies. The less those companies have to pay out for deer vehicle accidents the more they get to claim on the profit / loss statement. Everything they pay out is money they already made, comes right out of their pocket. Year's ago I ran the numbers on the average cost of a deer vehicle accident and multiplied it by the drop in deer vehicle accidents over a 5 year period after the odnr started their decimation plans in 2007. It was over 150mil in just those years. I'm sure it's well north of 3/4 of a billion now. Yet has you insurance gone down any? One such company owns most of downtown Columbus.
 
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LonewolfNopack

Junior Member
1,503
127
The woods
Oh come on buddy, you know even if they did we'd never know it. They're going to shape the narrative to fit their agenda no matter what. Your complaint will be ignored in the order it was received.
I think that's an easy assumption but I don't believe it to be true. If sportsman overwhelmed DOW, like lines out the door at the open houses, thousands of calls and emails, had some type of organizational presence that couldn't be ignored then change would happen. I am 100% confident on this one. The problem is we are unorganized and not enough of us truly care to stick with it. I'm not talking a few dozen pissed off hunters from a web forum. Im taking about thousands of hunters in an overwhelming presence.
 
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LonewolfNopack

Junior Member
1,503
127
The woods
There are communities stopping big industrial solar fields now which are billion dollar projects and previously thought to be unstoppable. It takes an organized presence and an unrelenting effort by the masses, but its happening and will continue to happen. I've been at some of the solar meetings and there were so many people that showed up that they were lined up outside in the pouring rain looking through the windows because nobody else could physically fit in the building. This is what it takes and not just once or twice but repeatedly. The nature of a human is to get mad, be motivated for several days or weeks, then come to the conclusion that whatever they are mad about is a helpless matter if it doesn't instantly budge or get better. That mindset will lead to failure every time. The problem with all of the above is it takes more time and effort then the average person with a life, job and family has the time or possibility to give, including myself. So we naturally accept and move on and continue to bitch occasionally when a headline comes out, but nothing ever changes. We are talking about hunting regulations here but it can be applied for anything. Mankind is a particularly predictable critter.
 
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Hedgelj

Senior Member
Supporting Member
7,145
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Mohicanish
So what if I was to tell you that there was a grass roots initiative to bring to light the driving force behind the manipulation of the deer herd numbers in Ohio? That the reason was postulated and there was a logical path to follow to come to the same conclusion?

That then those few individuals were going to get a table at a major outdoors show to attempt to increase awareness and get the numbers upset and motivated like you mentioned above.

But the postulated driving force then made legal contract with those individuals and inferred that they'd drown in the legal system unless the effort was stopped.

Would that make this tale more or less believable? Would you believe it at all?
 
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LonewolfNopack

Junior Member
1,503
127
The woods
So what if I was to tell you that there was a grass roots initiative to bring to light the driving force behind the manipulation of the deer herd numbers in Ohio? That the reason was postulated and there was a logical path to follow to come to the same conclusion?

That then those few individuals were going to get a table at a major outdoors show to attempt to increase awareness and get the numbers upset and motivated like you mentioned above.

But the postulated driving force then made legal contract with those individuals and inferred that they'd drown in the legal system unless the effort was stopped.

Would that make this tale more or less believable? Would you believe it at all?
I'm aware of what you are talking about. I have my own story that may be even more extreme then that one too. Trust me i have been down this road before and have paid the personal price. But like I wrote above, its going to take more then a few dozen pissed off hunters to make a difference. I never once said it would be easy but its absolutely possible. It doesn't need to be approached as a conspiracy theory (even though I agree 100% that its not a theory) rather then simply hunters being unhappy with certain regulations. The DOW invites hunters to comment every year on their regulations, how many have done that? Every open house I have attended was a ghost town and I was the only one there upset with anything. Why on earth would they change regulations because of one guys perspective? Make a line out the door for hours and get the local news media there, they would he forced to talk. I absolutely fall in the category of not having the time or energy to lead an effort, so I'm as guilty as anyone else, but too say its impossible for change just isn't accurate. Like I said, most hunters simply don't care enough to lift a finger.
 
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Hedgelj

Senior Member
Supporting Member
7,145
178
Mohicanish
I'm aware of what you are talking about. I have my own story that may be even more extreme then that one too. Trust me i have been down this road before and have paid the personal price. But like I wrote above, its going to take more then a few dozen pissed off hunters to make a difference. I never once said it would be easy but its absolutely possible. It doesn't need to be approached as a conspiracy theory (even though I agree 100% that its not a theory) rather then simply hunters being unhappy with certain regulations. The DOW invites hunters to comment every year on their regulations, how many have done that? Every open house I have attended was a ghost town and I was the only one there upset with anything. Why on earth would they change regulations because of one guys perspective? Make a line out the door for hours and get the local news media there, they would he forced to talk. I absolutely fall in the category of not having the time or energy to lead an effort, so I'm as guilty as anyone else, but too say its impossible for change simply isn't accurate. Like I said, most hunters simply don't care enough to lift a finger.
I've been to the open houses multiple times for multiple reasons but primarily to help push for straight wall cartridges.

The people at the open houses aren't decision makers, they are the average joes (no offense @Jackalope) of the ODNR. They were merely stating talking points or their own opinions neither of which were scientifically based. At the end of the discussion one of them said to me "allowing people to hunt with 45-70s would ruin deer hunting in Ohio".

The way its set up the actual rule makers are fully insulated from repercussions short of legal action or pressure from other branches of the Ohio .gov
 

Hedgelj

Senior Member
Supporting Member
7,145
178
Mohicanish
I've been to a couple of open houses. Seth is right about the message, no one really cares. They have more state employees show up than hunters. People would rather sit on a social media platform and hit a like button.
I must got the feeling that they have them to say they listen but no one of any consequence is ever there and i was at the one in Columbus many years in a row (actually where i met @Jackalope) so how does any idea get any traction?
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
I must got the feeling that they have them to say they listen but no one of any consequence is ever there and i was at the one in Columbus many years in a row (actually where i met @Jackalope) so how does any idea get any traction?
You have to form up and stand together like Seth is saying. Shit, I could start a thread about starting my smoker today and having a fire. More people would show up at my hous today than do at an open house. And then we'd sit around and bitch about nothing changing!
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,060
223
Ohio
There are communities stopping big industrial solar fields now which are billion dollar projects and previously thought to be unstoppable. It takes an organized presence and an unrelenting effort by the masses, but its happening and will continue to happen. I've been at some of the solar meetings and there were so many people that showed up that they were lined up outside in the pouring rain looking through the windows because nobody else could physically fit in the building. This is what it takes and not just once or twice but repeatedly. The nature of a human is to get mad, be motivated for several days or weeks, then come to the conclusion that whatever they are mad about is a helpless matter if it doesn't instantly budge or get better. That mindset will lead to failure every time. The problem with all of the above is it takes more time and effort then the average person with a life, job and family has the time or possibility to give, including myself. So we naturally accept and move on and continue to bitch occasionally when a headline comes out, but nothing ever changes. We are talking about hunting regulations here but it can be applied for anything. Mankind is a particularly predictable critter.
Here’s my theory. The public meetings regarding solar array projects are packed with protesters because there are in fact huge numbers of people who oppose them, and feel strongly enough about it to attend the meetings. I personally don’t believe that a similar proportion of hunters are upset about the current and prior management decisions made by the DOW. Yes, like you said, there are people on the forum(s) and various Facebook groups being vocal. But I have not witnessed or heard that same sentiment from the masses, at least not in my part of the state. Deer hunters are divided because they don’t all feel the same way. Waterfowl hunters are no different. You can’t rally the troops and present an organized force if they’re not sharing a similar point of view. The sentiment seems common when you read it online over and over… but who’s to say that isn’t biased? Angry people are usually more vocal than happy people. It’s human nature.

Here’s a thought for us all to ponder… Let’s think about what deer hunting in Ohio was like in the 1980’s. How many deer were killed and how common were trophy class bucks? Now think about those same questions and the quality of deer hunting in Ohio today. Can we not all agree that we are lightyears further ahead today than the 1980’s? Are we in our current situation BECAUSE OF conservation groups and the DOW, or IN SPITE OF those groups and agencies? Who knows… probably both.

This post is not meant to say what I think is right or wrong. I’m just asking, if we can’t be happy now with our deer hunting, when will we ever be happy with it? My 26 years of deer hunting tells me we have it pretty good today.
 

LonewolfNopack

Junior Member
1,503
127
The woods
Here’s my theory. The public meetings regarding solar array projects are packed with protesters because there are in fact huge numbers of people who oppose them, and feel strongly enough about it to attend the meetings. I personally don’t believe that a similar proportion of hunters are upset about the current and prior management decisions made by the DOW. Yes, like you said, there are people on the forum(s) and various Facebook groups being vocal. But I have not witnessed or heard that same sentiment from the masses, at least not in my part of the state. Deer hunters are divided because they don’t all feel the same way. Waterfowl hunters are no different. You can’t rally the troops and present an organized force if they’re not sharing a similar point of view. The sentiment seems common when you read it online over and over… but who’s to say that isn’t biased? Angry people are usually more vocal than happy people. It’s human nature.

Here’s a thought for us all to ponder… Let’s think about what deer hunting in Ohio was like in the 1980’s. How many deer were killed and how common were trophy class bucks? Now think about those same questions and the quality of deer hunting in Ohio today. Can we not all agree that we are lightyears further ahead today than the 1980’s? Are we in our current situation BECAUSE OF conservation groups and the DOW, or IN SPITE OF those groups and agencies? Who knows… probably both.

This post is not meant to say what I think is right or wrong. I’m just asking, if we can’t be happy now with our deer hunting, when will we ever be happy with it? My 26 years of deer hunting tells me we have it pretty good today.
Using that same theory, yes we have it better today then we did in 1900 as well. Is that really a fair or accurate way to guage success though? Or should we always be looking toward the future rather then the past. I believe in sound biological management of deer, which means keeping the herd just under carrying capacity. We aren't anywhere close to that. I've walked thousands or acres, probably closer to tens of thousands of acres of prime private property (for work) the past 10 years, and I've saw a total of one property that had defined browse lines and too many deer, and it was in the city limits. This is just one man's view and there are others who believe differently and that doesn't make either of us wrong. I run into hunters constantly down in my part of the state bitching about DOW but none of them have ever went forth with their concerns. I also know people who see 2 deer while driving down the road and think that deer are everywhere. As I say about any political situation in a democracy, we get the government we deserve.
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,060
223
Ohio
Using that same theory, yes we have it better today then we did in 1900 as well. Is that really a fair or accurate way to guage success though? Or should we always be looking toward the future rather then the past. I believe in sound biological management of deer, which means keeping the herd just under carrying capacity. We aren't anywhere close to that. I've walked thousands or acres, probably closer to tens of thousands of acres of prime private property (for work) the past 10 years, and I've saw a total of one property that had defined browse lines and too many deer, and it was in the city limits. This is just one man's view and there are others who believe differently and that doesn't make either of us wrong. I run into hunters constantly down in my part of the state bitching about DOW but none of them have ever went forth with their concerns. I also know people who see 2 deer while driving down the road and think that deer are everywhere. As I say about any political situation in a democracy, we get the government we deserve.
I totally agree that in most areas, the land itself could support more deer. The problem is (which you’re well aware of) is that the state isn’t just managing the deer population for hunters and carrying capacity. Whether we like it or not, public safety, property damage, and agricultural impacts are also considered. The degree to which all of those factor in… well, that’s another debate. The fact is hunters are still seeing deer and still being successful. Whether it takes them 10 minutes or 7 months to achieve that success, I don’t know. Maybe it is taking them longer than say, an average hunting period from the 2000’s. Is that necessarily a bad thing? Sometimes challenge and struggle is a good thing.