Buck/doe ratio

[Spencie]

Some other threads have brought up the ratio of bucks to does. I am probably way off base on this but here's my 2 cents. If you have a big tract of land to manage...1000 acres or more... then it is very important to get those numbers in order. If you are "managing" a small tract of land, 100 acres or less I can tell you that 10 does and 10 bucks aren't going to stay exclusively on your property. If there aren't any does ready then the bucks are going elsewhere. They are not going to run back and forth on your small parcel waiting for a doe to become ready. Therefore, we strive to keep as many does as possible using our property. If we have 20 does using it we have double the chances of one bringing in a mature buck. As long as they have plenty of food and cover I don't see the problem with more ladies. I'm sure we have enough neighbors willing to keep the does in check.
Like I said, I could be totally screwing things up thinking like this.
#worstdeerhunterinohio

 

[Isaacorps]

I tend to agree with your way of thinking.

 

[Fletch]

Spencie.... I'm with you the more ladies the better...

 

[giles]

What age class are we talking here? It seems to me that the places generally "loaded" with does are all small. Tons of yearlings and fawns, not many mature does or bucks.

 

[giles]

Also, I would think the more does the more stress. Leading to less fertile does or being bred by immature bucks. All in all, hurting herd health.

 

[Spencie]

We have some monster does that are older, along with a lot of fawns to 3 year olds. We have a lot of 1 and 2 year old bucks, a good group of 3 year olds and 2 four year olds that are residents.

 

[giles]

I would say you have a pretty good balance.

If someone is asked to shoot does, which ones should they shoot? Fawns, yearlings, old nanny? BB? I argue with myself over this ever year. This year I took out 2 buttons and a 2 year old scrub buck.

 

[at1010]

I personally follow the below.

I focus on browse pressure and available food. If I am assessing browse around March and I have black berry brambles as thicker thanmy finger, and other natives/non native species browsed - that is a sign of higher deer populations.

ill then monitor my exclusion fences on food plots - to determine how much did the deer remove per acre per plot.

I’ll speak with neighbors and try to get a rough estimate on what was harvested that year in around a 1000-2000 acre block.

I always assume some shot and lost, poached or predated on.

I’ll then consider my and my families hunting observations - example saw 12 doe in one sit.

I use cameras extensively to monitor deer numbers as well. Often people seem to assume it’s the same does hitting a plot or corn. What ive found is if you check cameras at same times and review time stamps closely, you’ll see numerous doe groups on the property at the same rime

Once all this information is gathered and a few years of trends are recognized, I can make harvest decisions based on above information and variances in year to year cycles (acorn crop, rain levels, crop failures, etc.).

If you have ample food, and you don’t notice any habitat degradation due or over browse, your deer numbers will not harm anything by increasing and bucks racks also won’t be impacted.

just my 2 cents.

 

[giles]

I personally follow the below.

I focus on browse pressure and available food. If I am assessing browse around March and I have black berry brambles as thicker thanmy finger, and other natives/non native species browsed - that is a sign of higher deer populations.

ill then monitor my exclusion fences on food plots - to determine how much did the deer remove per acre per plot.

I’ll speak with neighbors and try to get a rough estimate on what was harvested that year in around a 1000-2000 acre block.

I always assume some shot and lost, poached or predated on.

I’ll then consider my and my families hunting observations - example saw 12 doe in one sit.

I use cameras extensively to monitor deer numbers as well. Often people seem to assume it’s the same does hitting a plot or corn. What ive found is if you check cameras at same times and review time stamps closely, you’ll see numerous doe groups on the property at the same rime

Once all this information is gathered and a few years of trends are recognized, I can make harvest decisions based on above information and variances in year to year cycles (acorn crop, rain levels, crop failures, etc.).

If you have ample food, and you don’t notice any habitat degradation due or over browse, your deer numbers will not harm anything by increasing and bucks racks also won’t be impacted.

just my 2 cents.

Sort of how they gather our harvest numbers. Only they go strictly off browse of native plants.

Ours as in, the main property we hunt. Not ODNR.

 

[jagermeister]

You’re looking at your small piece... but it’s still a part of a larger whole. There are downfalls to your approach. More does means a longer, prolonged rut... resulting in more stress and more weight loss for bucks... end result, shittier overall health and condition going into the coldest months of the year. On top of that, more does on your property results in lower abundance and/or lower quality of food sources on your property and surrounding areas. Not only are the bucks in poor condition by this point, but now they don’t have as much high quality food available to them. The does are also affected by this as the winter goes on... more stress on them throughout pregnancy and fawning. They will either endure the inferior nutrition and come out the other side in lower body condition, or vacate your property and move somewhere offering better food. Either result is bad for you.

You may feel like your approach is “good” because logically more pussy on the landscape should equate to more buck sightings. But you’re not doing what’s good for the population overall.

 

[Spencie]

I would say you have a pretty good balance.

If someone is asked to shoot does, which ones should they shoot? Fawns, yearlings, old nanny? BB? I argue with myself over this ever year. This year I took out 2 buttons and a 2 year old scrub buck.

I don’t buy into the “shoot the BBs” theory. If it were true you wouldn’t have certain genetic traits in racks in a specific area. Our Athens county property had a short G3, short beam 8 point trait. If I were to want does killed it would be older and sterile does.

We have 2 big groups of does at the house every evening along with some stragglers. I know for a fact the one group has never been to the feeder in the middle of the property because one is slightly piebald. In fact I have never seen her while hunting but see her in the yard nightly.

 

[Bowkills]

Very low deer numbers here. i had more bucks on camera than does. Talking with neighbors we thought it was almost equal buck to doe. I saw bucks every hunt and most times only bucks. Our herd is very young here not many mature deer but they seem healthy and we enough numbers for hunters to hunt and farmers to not bitch. Rut is exciting with an explosion of bucks in compition. Not many four or five year old bucks get killed here and if they do the texts are shared county wide....I like where we are currently.

 

[bowhunter1023]

We had better bucks when we had less does. Jeff Sturgis says you can't have both great bucks and lots of does. There's a tradeoff. I went hard in the direction of holding more does and now, we don't hold shooters.

 

[Spencie]

I will also note that this past November was the best overall rut I have seen.

As far as the post from @jagermeister , he could very well be correct. Although, I feel there is plenty of feed available. Most of the bucks go to the ag fields during the summer months also.

The years prior to us buying this place a group of Amish owned it. The first year deer numbers were very low.

 

[at1010]

You’re looking at your small piece... but it’s still a part of a larger whole. There are downfalls to your approach. More does means a longer, prolonged rut... resulting in more stress and more weight loss for bucks... end result, shittier overall health and condition going into the coldest months of the year. On top of that, more does on your property results in lower abundance and/or lower quality of food sources on your property and surrounding areas. Not only are the bucks in poor condition by this point, but now they don’t have as much high quality food available to them. The does are also affected by this as the winter goes on... more stress on them throughout pregnancy and fawning. They will either endure the inferior nutrition and come out the other side in lower body condition, or vacate your property and move somewhere offering better food. Either result is bad for you.

You may feel like your approach is “good” because logically more pussy on the landscape should equate to more buck sightings. But you’re not doing what’s good for the population overall.

always great stuff Jim.

“We had better bucks when we had less does. Jeff Sturgis says you can't have both great bucks and lots of does. There's a tradeoff. I went hard in the direction of holding more does and now, we don't hold shooters.” @bowhunter1023

I have seen the decline in buck quality as well. I have a lot of food and secondary successional habitat in the neighborhood (550 acres of clear cut) but Doe numbers have grown a lot in last 4 years. We shot 3 off farm this year, didn’t even reduce the number of pictures or sightings as more just fill into the area now.

I won’t be wasteful but I’ll be filling tags for many years to come, barring no changes and I won’t feel bad about it.

 

[Sgt Fury]

We had better bucks when we had less does. Jeff Sturgis says you can't have both great bucks and lots of does. There's a tradeoff. I went hard in the direction of holding more does and now, we don't hold shooters.

I’ve found just the opposite at my place...this year we had plenty of good bucks all summer and just a few does...come the end of October and all of November, only saw the 4-5 local does and no shooters in daylight. Had some on cam at night but not many. I’m guessing they went to where the does were...as they sure weren’t on my property. In years past when I had lots of does, there were always bucks cruising through looking for them. I do have a lot of fields nearby and bait to help hold the does in the area. This was a strange year as we typically have a lot of does and only 2-3 good bucks using the area, but this year we had many good bucks and not a lot of does....where ever the does went to, I’m sure that’s where the bucks ended up going. Rutting action was terrible and deer sightings were way down.

 

[Spencie]

I'm going to add that our "resident" population does not stay only on us. It's only 100 acres, just a small portion of their home range. We are trying to make it as attractive as possible for them to spend daylight hours on us. There are a few bucks that I wish would not wander so far. In fact, I will build them a barn to reside in if they would do so.

 

[triple_duece]

I have 179 acres. I will usually hold a couple 3 year olds and a 4 yr old. Usually they stay on my place but they wonder on other properties. I know this because the property to the south of me get pics also. My area is wooded north and south w ag east and west. This concentrates my movement north and south unless they are hitting the fields. What’s most important to getting deer to an age class to harvest is my neighbors. The last 5 years all properties surrounding me has had like minded hunters and the results have shown big time. We now have shooters to hunt. Prior to that we didn’t kill much and I was frustrated as we passed for years with not much to show for it.
Even if you have 1000 acres you will only have a few deer with a small enough range to keep them on your property most of the time. Keep in mind that a lot of deer won’t call their home range in the middle of your property, more like yours and a neighbor.
I talk to my neighbors so they feel good about passing a buck that needs another year. I tell them I don’t care who kills it as long as we let it get some age. I also tell them if they bring a new hunter or kid I don’t care what they kill and should let them kill what they see fit. I have no say in telling them what they kill, only to tell them that we are willing to let most pass and if we all do it, all of us get to hunt nice bucks. I can tell you this approach is working for me.

 

[bowhunter1023]

My thought in attracting and holding more does was very similar to Spencie's. I was able to achieve my goal, but I didn't realize it would come at the expense of holding bucks on the property. The issue with being the doe hub for me has been neighbors cutting deer off on their way to our farm. 4 target bucks in 6 years have been killed within 100 yards of our property line as they worked their way towards the does on our place. I need to add more bedding, but in smaller doses throughout the property to encourage more buck bedding. Food is definitely not the issue, it's security cover and the does have taken over all the good shit. Like Sturgis says, if you're wanting to be left alone and simply survive, you going to hang out with your buddies at the local watering hole or at a bachelorette party?

 

[giles]

I have 179 acres. I will usually hold a couple 3 year olds and a 4 yr old. Usually they stay on my place but they wonder on other properties. I know this because the property to the south of me get pics also. My area is wooded north and south w ag east and west. This concentrates my movement north and south unless they are hitting the fields. What’s most important to getting deer to an age class to harvest is my neighbors. The last 5 years all properties surrounding me has had like minded hunters and the results have shown big time. We now have shooters to hunt. Prior to that we didn’t kill much and I was frustrated as we passed for years with not much to show for it.
Even if you have 1000 acres you will only have a few deer with a small enough range to keep them on your property most of the time. Keep in my bd that a lot of deer won’t call their home range in the middle of your property, more like yours and a neighbor.
I talk to my neighbors so they feel good about passing a buck that needs another year. I tell them I don’t care who kills it as long as we let it get some age. I also tell them if they bring a new hunter of kid I don’t care what they kill and should let them kill what they see fit. I have no say in telling them what they kill, only to tell them that we are willing to let most pass and if we all do it, all of us get to hunt nice bucks. I can tell you this approach is working for me.

I am lost, what does that have to do with does?