AR Pistols... What's the point?

[jagermeister]

In the thread about the Anderson lowers, it was mentioned that some guys might use them for AR pistol builds. It reminded me of something that's always made me scratch my head. What's the point of an AR pistol? I just don't get it. Why are these popular? I mean, you still have a buffer tube sticking out the back... Why not have a stock attached to it? Is there some type of law that says a barrel must be a certain length of there's a stock on the back or what?

 

[Wmiller07]

Yes to put a stock on a rifle the barrel has to be at least 16" or u have register it as an sbr and pay a $200 tax. With the pistol you can kind of get around that by using an arm brace. It's a really dumb law.

 

[Ohiosam]

With a stock the barrel has to be 16". You can build a pistol and put a blade on it and shoulder it http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?p=3524

 

[Beentown]

A firearm with a barrel under 16" must be a "pistol". If it has a butt stock then it is illegal. (The laws are convoluted)

The "pistols" made from AR'S usually have a "brace" that people use as a buttstock anyway.

The laws are dumb with too many grey areas.

 

[Ohiosam]

Partly I'm building this with the hope that suppressors are removed from the NFA. Then I'll pin and weld a can on it that gets me to 16" and add a carbine stock.

 

[Mike]

I have one for shits and giggles.

 

[Houseofmoto]

In the thread about the Anderson lowers, it was mentioned that some guys might use them for AR pistol builds. It reminded me of something that's always made me scratch my head. What's the point of an AR pistol? I just don't get it. Why are these popular? I mean, you still have a buffer tube sticking out the back... Why not have a stock attached to it? Is there some type of law that says a barrel must be a certain length of there's a stock on the back or what?

Great question! Some reasons why:

1. If you have your CHL, you can legally carry an AR pistol loaded in your vehicle. Can't do that with a rifle in OH. Nobody says you gotta build or buy super short pistol. You can always build a 12"-14.5" barrel.

2. Lots of guys build pistols while they wait for their tax stamp to build an SBR (short barrel rifle with a barrel length under 16"). You can't have a rifle with a barrel less than 16" without an NFA tax stamp from the BATF. Kinda crazy isn't it? No tax stamp? You can't put a stock on it if you've got a barrel less than 16". But hey - you can build a pistol!

3. Along the SBR line, some guys want a suppressor - which again requires a bunch of waiting and paperwork for yet another tax stamp. Who wants a honking long barrel along with an even longer suppressor on the end? Which is a reason many guys build a .300 blackout, but that's another conversation.

4. Because you can! 'Murica

As I'm typing this, I missed Sams response and a couple of other guys. They nailed it.

Hoping for HPA to pass! I want some cans!

 

[jagermeister]

Ahhh thanks fellas. Learn something new everyday I guess.

So, if you put a suppressor on the end, does that count towards the total barrel length? I would like to get a suppressor someday but I would like it to be on an SBR setup I think.

 

[Houseofmoto]

Ahhh thanks fellas. Learn something new everyday I guess.

So, if you put a suppressor on the end, does that count towards the total barrel length? I would like to get a suppressor someday but I would like it to be on an SBR setup I think.

I "think" you could pin a suppressor on a shorter barrel to get your 16"+. However, I'm not a legal expert - so don't take that as advice.

Currently you can have a shorter barrel than 16", but you have to have a pinned/welded extended brake/flashhider/muzzle projection piece to get you to the 16"+ overall barrel length.

If you have a stock on your rifle, proceed with caution with anything below a 16" rifle barrel. Most likely, you need a tax stamp.

If they got rid of the SBR SBS part of the NFA and then also removed suppressors.........you'd be seeing some really cool guns coming from manufacturers.

Imagine not needing hearing protection when shooting. Imagine buying a short barreled integral suppressed rifle or shotgun by just filling out your 4473 form.

 

[jagermeister]

Imagine not needing hearing protection when shooting. Imagine buying a short barreled integral suppressed rifle or shotgun by just filling out your 4473 form.

Now that would be awesome. Well, not for my bank account I guess. Lol

 

[Beentown]

If they make suppression a non-nfa item I will be broke for a month buying universal muzzle devices and a few cans.

 

[Mike]

If they make suppression a non-nfa item I will be broke for a month buying universal muzzle devices and a few cans.

The manufactures will be busy that's for sure.

 

[MK111]

Ahhh thanks fellas. Learn something new everyday I guess.

So, if you put a suppressor on the end, does that count towards the total barrel length? I would like to get a suppressor someday but I would like it to be on an SBR setup I think.

No the suppressor doesn't add to the legal length of the barrel. A barrel adapter would have to be welded to the barrel to get to 16" rifle length. A pinned adapter does not add legal length to the barrel only if a non take off weld adapter is applied. The key it can not be removed and put back on again.

So says my Class 3 expert.

Since Trump took office the ATF took a different view of the arm brace and wrote a new opinion paper. Stating that adding the arm brace to a pistol with a short barrel does not make it a SPR if the arm brace is 'sometimes' used as a shoulder stock against the shoulder. The key wording there is 'sometimes'. Stating that adding the arm brace did not change the design of the pistol it only changed the 'sometime' use of the pistol.

I built 2 AR pistols with arm braces this year. One is a 9MM with 5" barrel with a added length barrel shroud to extend pass the forearm. When I get my suppressor I probably will have to get a slightly longer barrel.
And a 300 BO with 10.5" barrel. Already bought and applied for my multi caliber suppressor.

AR pistols must be built on a receiver marked as a 'pistol or multi caliber' then transferred to the buyer as a 'pistol'. I believe all AR possible pistol receivers are marked 'multi caliber'.
You can not build or have a pistol built on a registered rifle receiver. The stupid 1968 gun law states you can build a rifle out of a pistol but you can not build a pistol out of a rifle.

 

[jagermeister]

Thanks Frank. Excellent insight as usual. Do you have a pic of the 9mm or .300 showing the arm brace?

 

[Ohiosam]

2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download

Also total length of a rifle must be 26" or more

 

[Jackalope]

No the suppressor doesn't add to the legal length of the barrel. A barrel adapter would have to be welded to the barrel to get to 16" rifle length. A pinned adapter does not add legal length to the barrel only if a non take off weld adapter is applied. The key it can not be removed and put back on again.

So says my Class 3 expert.

Since Trump took office the ATF took a different view of the arm brace and wrote a new opinion paper. Stating that adding the arm brace to a pistol with a short barrel does not make it a SPR if the arm brace is 'sometimes' used as a shoulder stock against the shoulder. The key wording there is 'sometimes'. Stating that adding the arm brace did not change the design of the pistol it only changed the 'sometime' use of the pistol.

I built 2 AR pistols with arm braces this year. One is a 9MM with 5" barrel with a added length barrel shroud to extend pass the forearm. When I get my suppressor I probably will have to get a slightly longer barrel.
And a 300 BO with 10.5" barrel. Already bought and applied for my multi caliber suppressor.

AR pistols must be built on a receiver marked as a 'pistol or multi caliber' then transferred to the buyer as a 'pistol'. I believe all AR possible pistol receivers are marked 'multi caliber'.
You can not build or have a pistol built on a registered rifle receiver. The stupid 1968 gun law states you can build a rifle out of a pistol but you can not build a pistol out of a rifle.

It was my understanding that the pistol designstion for the lower was applied at the time of purchase by annotating it as a handgun on the 4473. Is that incorrect?

My reason for wanting to purchase them is more for a stockpile. While federal firearms regulations tend to be trending in a good direction, there has been considerable talk in the past about banning AR pistols. Such a ban would likely apply to future production and purchase but grandfather existing firearms. If that were to happen the most expensive part of an AR pistol build would be the lower.

For the same reason that I have over 3000 SS109/M855 unloaded steel penetrator bullets stashed away. While not considered as armor piercing by the ATF standards today there was discussions around reclassifying it as such and thus banning it.

 

[Houseofmoto]

It was my understanding that the pistol designstion for the lower was applied at the time of purchase by annotating it as a handgun on the 4473. Is that incorrect?

My reason for wanting to purchase them is more for a stockpile. While federal firearms regulations tend to be trending in a good direction, there has been considerable talk in the past about banning AR pistols. Such a ban would likely apply to future production and purchase but grandfather existing firearms. If that were to happen the most expensive part of an AR pistol build would be the lower.

For the same reason that I have over 3000 SS109/M855 unloaded steel penetrator bullets stashed away. While not considered as armor piercing by the ATF standards today there was discussions around reclassifying it as such and thus banning it.

Your FFL should mark the stripped lowers as OTHER. You can then build it as whatever you like.

REMEMBER - IF A STOCK IS EVER PUT ON A FIREARM, ITS THEN CONSIDERED A RIFLE IN THE EYES OF THE BATFE.

 

[MK111]

Your FFL should mark the stripped lowers as OTHER. You can then build it as whatever you like.

REMEMBER - IF A STOCK IS EVER PUT ON A FIREARM, ITS THEN CONSIDERED A RIFLE IN THE EYES OF THE BATFE.

Yes the FFL dealer marks the 4473 as 'other' which means either a pistol or rifle can be a legal build. And same receiver can be used back and forth for future rifle or pistol builds.
A stock is a stock and a arm brace is not considered a stock.
A legal pistol has no limit on length.

 

[Mike]

Your FFL should mark the stripped lowers as OTHER. You can then build it as whatever you like.

Yes

 

[antiqucycle]

There are plenty of 30 rounot magazines for pistols. I do not need a
ar pistol.