ODNR Bobcat webinar
- Thread starter Hunter II
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Interesting. Out of all the trail cam pics I've gotten of bobcats with kills in their mouths the majority have been squirrel. Put out a bag of corn and there's no short supply of raccoons there eating without care.
at1010
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Although that seems odd, I have heard bilogist speak about this - specifically coyotes and bobcats impacts on turkeys, or lack thereof. Nest predators tend to have the largest impact on turkey recruitment. Also the lack of secondary successional habitat in much of our state is not helpign Turkey, Grouse, etc. Lastly, a few wet Springs have been tough on them as well.
Here is a study on the largest issues resulting in turkey recruitment. This is not the same one I have read in the past but I skimmed it, it has some interesting data points.
Poor nest survival is a critical limiting factor in the recruitment of wild birds. Nest predation is often cited as one of the main causes of nest failure, especially for Meleagris gallopavo silvestris (Eastern Wild Turkey) nests, using time-lapse and motion-sensitive trail cameras to determine which predators were likely to be responsible for preying on Wild Turkey nests in the Pineywoods Corvus brachy- rhynchos Procyon lotor (Raccoon) from spring to summer. Mammalian mesopredators, Raccoon and Didelphis virginiana (Opossum), were primarily responsible for this increase, suggesting an increase in search ef- fort by mesopredators that coincided with increased dietary diversity in a period of reduced prey resources. Predators other than mesopredators—American Crows, Picoides sp. (wood- peckers), Dasypus novemcinctus (Nine-banded Armadillo), and snakes—were responsible the most important of these. After nest deployment, American Crows located and preyed
Interesting.....
at1010
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It does seem counter intuitive (at least to me, I know it did when I first read about this topic), we tend to think less predators=more game animals.These ecosystems are complex and interlinked. Now, if we could eliminate all nest predators off the landscape, would we be able to then correlate an increase in population of turkeys to the decrease in coyotes/bobcats- odds are more likely. Although having total absents of coons might cause other issues.
If we are worried about poult survial, once hatched, I think we need to be most concerened with high qulaity bugging areas, in the formation of secondary successional habitat. Imagine the amount of poults predatated on by predatory birds.....leaving the bush hog in the barn in the early Spring sure can help some of these young poults- IMO.
Weather is a leading cause of nest failures, primarily wetness and cold.
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It does appear that they're attempting to control the narrative. While they would not be wrong that Raccoons and opossums are responsible for the vast majority of nest and poult depredation today, they're failing to reveal the whole story. Their statement is likely true simply because of numbers. There are exponentially more raccoons and opossums than there are bobcats, so naturally the former would be a bigger problem. Flip the population numbers and the same would be true of bobcats....
Simply because raccoons and opossums are the largest impact today does not mean that bobcats are any less destructive as individuals. A reasonable expectation from a wildlife manger would be to produce a number of depredations by species. e.g. 85 nests per 100 bobcats.. 140 nests per 100 raccoons. etc.. Somewhere in the middle there is a sweet spot where bobcat numbers can grow, raccoon numbers can decline, and nest destruction remains constant. meaning 0 impact to turkeys.... But hey. I'm no fucking biologist or anything.
Simply because raccoons and opossums are the largest impact today does not mean that bobcats are any less destructive as individuals. A reasonable expectation from a wildlife manger would be to produce a number of depredations by species. e.g. 85 nests per 100 bobcats.. 140 nests per 100 raccoons. etc.. Somewhere in the middle there is a sweet spot where bobcat numbers can grow, raccoon numbers can decline, and nest destruction remains constant. meaning 0 impact to turkeys.... But hey. I'm no fucking biologist or anything.
at1010
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I am no biologist but I do think it is a bit more complex.
1. You have to assume that an area has a carrying capacity of predators - You rarely will have a situaiton where you have a high density of bobcats and a high density of various other predetors - the landscape simply cannot sustain this type of predetor density.
2. Bobcats and coyotes, from my understanding, are far less likely to seak out a turkey nest. They tend to hunt small game and if they come across a fawn/nest, yes they will take advantage of the oppurtunity (oppurtunistic carnivors, as some define them). A racoon, skunk, etc. are far more scavanger type predetors that are likely to find, and eat an entire nest vs. the bobcat/coyote who may target a poult.
3. It is my understanding that biologist are very weary of recommending killing Bobcats and in some cases coyotes, due to the fear of compensatory reproduction. Esstentially, it has been found that when predetors are trapped, they will adapt to the pressure and have larger litters to make up for the loss of population. This is not an issue if you trap intensely, but that is extremely difficult to manage at the macro level.
I am not trying to be a debbie downer, I just like to share the informaiton I have gathered, so folks can set their goal commensurate with likely outcomes.
If you trap a coyote, a coon, a bobcat - you are likely not going to make a dent one way or another, and if you enjoy it - have at it! However, one should consider the compensatory reproduction if they are trapping heavily one year to "reduce populations", only to then stop. I have read a few studies out of Penn State this and listend to famous trappers, like Casey Shoopman talk about how they have observed this on large scale trapping programs in Texas.
The general idea is best said by Casey - "youll never remove predetors from the landscape entirely, but if you can trap heavily during the fawning/nesting season, to remove predators for that specific duration , year after year, you will see an increase in recruitment" - Casey Shoopman, the intensity he and others trap is far above my pay grade and time allotment.
Therefore, I think focusing on habitat through TSI work and not mowing is the best option for fawning and turkey poult recruitment.
interesting link from the NWTF - https://www.nwtf.org/conservation/article/coexist-predators
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I don't disagree with those assessments as a general observation. But I expect actual data from our wildlife manangers. Their statement regarding the bobcat questions is very short sided and lacks quantitative substance.
Without real data regarding nest & poult predation by population of species then I view their response as simply
at1010
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That is fair and valid. I took the above as this was a chat feature of a webinar - so they had to be brief, but I might be wrong and/or that is a poor assumption on my part about the need to be brief.
I am not sure they have spent the required time on truly gathering bobcat population data, as they should. I know a few buddies in Monroe/Athens county who dont even report them anymore as they see them so often.
It would be nice to see a general population, 3,5,10 year expected population, trapping plan/allowance and how that would impact population and lay that over Turkey numbers and how/what is being done to reverse the decling trend.
I am on board with more data - you wont hear me complain about that very often! Good stuff- you got my gears turning on how this could be plotted......hmmm!
Stressless
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The best impact on turkey nest raiding raccoons I know of is my marlin .22mag shooting 2,200fps Maxi-Mag +v 22 WMR. Crack-Whack!
Our unreclaimed strip mined area is lousy with bobcats - also lousy with 'coons - running many cams with the neighbor - never - not once did I see any evidence of Bobcat predation on a single racoon - even little coons coming to the BossBuck feeders like clockwork.
Our unreclaimed strip mined area is lousy with bobcats - also lousy with 'coons - running many cams with the neighbor - never - not once did I see any evidence of Bobcat predation on a single racoon - even little coons coming to the BossBuck feeders like clockwork.
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I did some googling this afternoon and ran across an NWTF article mentioning a Pennsylvania study of hens. During the 5 1/2 year study 41 hens were killed by predators. 7 of those 41 were killed by bobcats. None were killed by raccoons. Only 2 were killed by coyotes.
at1010
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thats interesting - link the study up.
I wouldn’t not expect a coon to kill a hen. However, nest predation is what seems to have the greatest impact on bird recruitment - this is where coons can be devastating.
24% was killed by bobcats and coyotes - what was the other 76% of cause of mortality?
I’d be curious as well as to why the coyotes were such a low representation of kills. Surely it isn’t because they don’t enjoy Turkey? Hahaha
Possibly bobcats represented a larger % of the larger predator population where this study was conducted?
I put a link in a above post to an NWTF article that was interesting as well.
the balance of predator to prey is certainly a complex one and very interesting.
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Yeah it's a chat where a short answer is acceptable but I would expect something more balanced. Perhaps "The impact of bobcat predation on turkeys has yet to be established in Ohio however the predominant impact today is from raccoons which are a food source for bobcats.
Something along those lines instead of "shut up stupid, raccoons are the problem not bobcats."
I wonder why they weren't equally quick to appropriately blame raccoons when they were handing out crop damage permits like candy and using farmers to blame their statewide deer reduction efforts on.
at1010
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The real question here is, how do we get insurance companies to care about coon/car collisions! HAHAAHA
All of a sudden the coon population in Ohio will be diminshed to nothing!!
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The webinar was more like 'look at the cute kitties' not any real in depth discussion of the population. In the beginning they described the bobcat as being rare but then toward the end they mentioned how southeast counties had a high population. The answer regarding raccoons felt like a 'shut up that's not why we're here' type answer.
Here is the NWTF page mentioning the PA study but I cannot find on the PA site where they break out these specific numbers.
Turkey Killers
The National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) is a national nonprofit conservation and hunting organization that has worked for the conservation of the wild turkey and preservation of the hunting tradition since 1973.
www.nwtf.org
Here is the study I believe the NWTF is referring to in their article. the NWTF may have gotten the numbers at a conference or via interview with the biologist.
I did find a mention in a PA study of a Georgia study that determined the opossums were the number one nest predator which would contradict the ODNR person.