The Silver Lab Debate...

[bowhunter1023]

Joe says drama is good for business, so enjoy a dose courtesy of us snotty breed snobs!

To get us back up to speed...

... And what is wrong with silver labs.

Someone had to ask... (Just some inside lab owner humor )

To start with, it's not a recognized color by the AKC, which causes folks some heartburn. However, the AKC does recognize a wide-range of shades in yellow from "vanilla" like my pup, to fox reds. Those variations in shade are under less scrutiny genetically speaking. Traditionally, there were no variations in blacks and chocolates (the other two recognized colors), then silver came along and they're a "diluted" chocolate. Many people feel, including some of the world's larger kennel associations, that silvers are the result of "unscrupulous" breeding habits and there's some science to back that theory up. The same "dilution" gene that allows for the expression of the "genetic mutation" (silver coat) is also found in Weimaraners.

You can register a silver with AKC and it will go in as a chocolate, but whether it meets breed standards is a whole different Pandora's box.

IMO, the definitive statement on the subject: https://thelabradorclub.com/news/akc-lrc-joint-statement-on-alleged-silver-labradors/

Well, purebred Labs haven't been documented carrying the recessive dilute alleles, at least not that I'm aware of. So that basically leaves two potential scenarios. 1., The dd allele was a simple gene mutation that came out of nowhere, and was selected for in subsequent breeding's, or 2., The recessive alleles were introduced by cross breeding with a known carrier of the dilute alleles, like a Weimereiner. I don't know what my stance is as far as Silvers being "purebred" or not. But to me, scenario #2 seems to be the most probable, especially considering how most every Silver I've seen has a weird, non-Labradorish look to it.

So now that you've heard from a couple breed snobs, this gem requires further debate...

I knew it was a snotty purebred dog bullshit. Some of the best dogs are mutts and some of the worst dogs are purebreds

Some of the worst dogs are mutts and some of the best dogs are purebreds, so... what's your point? My grandma owned the dumbest golden retriever to walk the planet. Greg and Mike have excellent goldens that do a great job of representing the best of their breed. Do I need to point of the same dichotomy in humans?!?

Asking your original question was like showing up to an OSTA shoot in 2005 and asking "what's wrong with crossbows?" After all, all bows are archery equipment, right? Well to an old timer toting a selfbow that adheres to "breed" standards set forth by OSTA would beg to differ with the notion that all bows are created equal. This is no different and labs aren't the only breed to deal with this type of debate.

What JB and I laid out was not some "snotty purebred dog bullshit". We actually presented some of the science behind why there's a question about the legitimacy of silver labs, and we also presented the official stance of the organizations that oversee the breeds. Is supporting the strict adherence to gun saftey as articulated by the NRA some "snotty gun owner bullshit"?

Neither he nor I, know the scientific truth as to whether a silver lab is indeed purebred or not (and we both acknowledge such). In fact, there's debate about whether any dog is "purebred" since all breeds originated in wolves or a similar canid of "wolfish" nature. So is a purebred poodle a purebred dog? Well, that depends on what standard you're holding it to and in the instance of labs, the breed standard doesn't currently recognize silvers as a "purebred" variety.

The floor is open for rebuttal...

 

[5Cent]

I view this topic the same as discussions with horse folk. To each their own, abide by your own thoughts/opinions as they are for your specific circumstance.

If you are breeding, showing or trying to get somewhere within the industry, then that's much different than an animal for personal use and pleasure. They are not apples to apples and should not be considered as such.

I have had 2 labs, 1 yellow and 1 chocolate. I have grown up around 3 different ones, 1 black and 3 yellows. I would own a silver if it presented the personality and traits I was looking for in a pup. Would I plan on doing field trials or AKC shows, nope, that's not why I got it. If I was, I'd be sure to check to make sure there wouldn't be any hiccups prior to selecting an animal.

Again, this is well beyond the dog world. Horses, hogs, cattle, etc.

 

[giles]

It ain’t the dogs fault...

 

[brock ratcliff]

I’m not at all knowledge on the subject. However, I know a guy that allowed a GSP and black lab get together. He passed the resulting pups off as silver labs. To me, that’s a mutt.

 

[Sgt Fury]

 

[Jackalope]

I don't subscribe to the philosophy that purebred dogs are smarter or better than a mutt. As a matter of fact I think quite the opposite as it is well known that purebred dogs have more inherant health problems than genetically diverse dogs. There is no doubt that there are great benefits to selectively breeding character traits for the task at hand. For instance a beagle with a drive to hunt rabbits, or a lab with a drive to retrieve. This does not mean however that a mutt can't do the same thing if it naturally possesses that drive or is trained to do it. You see this a lot in the diversity of bomb and drug sniffing dogs, military dogs, and the like. They don't get hung up on breed because they're not concerned with breeding . I am a firm believer that the primary reason you see specific breeds of dogs in these competitions is because of the money that can be generated from breeding and not because a mutt can't be trained to do it. If you show up to the UKCs Hunting Retriever club competition with a "performance" registered dog, AKA a mutt, and not a pedigree registered dog, it don't matter if you finish him to a grand champion and whip everyone ass, ain't nobody going to pay you to breed him with their precious pedigree dog. No matter how good a pup that dog sires that litter can't be registered as a pedigree and nobody will want them. Could you imagine if someone showed up and whipped everyones ass with a labradoodle.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Who said anything about what kind of dog was smarter? Talk about Pandora's box...

I've been privy to 3 great dogs in my life: AKC Doberman, AKC Chocolate Lab and the dog that rivals them both, was by best guess, 1/2 Rottweiler, 1/4 Lab and a 1/4 German Shepard. I'm not questioning whether purebreds or mutts are smarter because that is determined on a dog-by-dog basis. The debate is about standards and the adherence to, or not, of the breed standard. I will agree with you that a driver to the breed standard is $. After all, $ is the root of all evil right?!?

 

[Quantum673]

Ultimately it comes down to Silver Labs only started showing up in the 60's or 70's. The reason they started showing up is controversial. Some are I. The belief that back in the 40's-50's someone bred Weiner in. Others believe that there was a Gene mutation caused by over feeding Chocolates when the boomed as a popular breed. The AKC allows them to be registered as chocolates but does not recognize the color silver.

Who knows how they really came about? If the geneticist and experts can't agree then I would guess they will always be classified the same.

Great analogy Jesse. Just like bows they all are capable of getting the job done.

 

[Carpn]

Without a doubt mutts can be great dogs . Some of the best dogs are . But if I was going to invest the time to train a dog to hunt , as well as take care of the thing for the next 12 yrs I'd want to do everything I could to ensure that dog was gonna be the best it can . If that means buying a dog that came out of known pedigree I would definitely .

If your looking for a dog to be a companion and bark at people coming up the driveway there's no reason to search out a dog with known hunting pedigree

 

[Clay Showalter]

Ok I started all this, I have nothing against purebred dogs as they are all great at different things. I laugh because lots of people get off on having a purebred dog and like telling everyone it is a purebred, to me it is the same as driving a fancy car or SUV, to each his own. I don’t give a crap, I just think it is funny that people get worked up about a silver lab, I just like them because they are a good looking dog.

We inherited a purebred cocker spaniel, because he was such a pain in the ass and didn’t like anyone. He liked us so the extended family said he is yours.

 

[Jamie]

My dogs are selectively bred mutts. smartest, healthiest dogs I've ever had. Original Mt. Cur is not even recognized by AKC. people tend to confuse "well bred" with "pure bred", but those are two different things in my head.

Bringing a crossbow to OSTA in 2005 would have raised a few eyebrows, but there probably would have been a fight in 2007.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Ok I started all this, I have nothing against purebred dogs as they are all great at different things. I laugh because lots of people get off on having a purebred dog and like telling everyone it is a purebred, to me it is the same as driving a fancy car or SUV, to each his own. I don’t give a crap, I just think it is funny that people get worked up about a silver lab, I just like them because they are a good looking dog.

We inherited a purebred cocker spaniel, because he was such a pain in the ass and didn’t like anyone. He liked us so the extended family said he is yours.

It appears to me you projected previous experience and interactions with "elitist" dog owners on JB and I after we simply answered your question in a pretty straightforward, non-pretentious manner. Based on your "snotty" comment, I'd argue you're more worked up about the subject than either JB or I. We didn't set the breed standards and I don't see either of us claiming our dogs are superior because they're purebred. In fact, my purebred lab is largely worthless in comparison to several aspects of the breed standard, so I'm the last guy to pretend I'm driving a fancy car.

Growing up, we rescued a purebred Cocker Spaniel after our Doberman died. Rusty, the Cocker, was probably clinically retarded and for sure, suffered from ADHD. Ruined the breed, and hunting breeds in general, for my parents. It only takes one to make or break someone's take on a particular dog.

 

[Bigcountry40]

This is a little off subject, anybody else watch Westminster Dog Show last night? It goes into great detail about about each breed and its history, I have watched in religiously since I was in middle school. I have always been curious why water fowl hunters don't get poodles? Is there a reason labs dominate the duck hunting world, I would think the fact that poodles not shedding would be a big advantage.

 

[Sgt Fury]

This is a little off subject, anybody else watch Westminster Dog Show last night? It goes into great detail about about each breed and its history, I have watched in religiously since I was in middle school. I have always been curious why water fowl hunters don't get poodles? Is there a reason labs dominate the duck hunting world, I would think the fact that poodles not shedding would be a big advantage.

 

[Clay Showalter]

It appears to me you projected previous experience and interactions with "elitist" dog owners on JB and I after we simply answered your question in a pretty straightforward, non-pretentious manner. Based on your "snotty" comment, I'd argue you're more worked up about the subject than either JB or I. We didn't set the breed standards and I don't see either of us claiming our dogs are superior because they're purebred. In fact, my purebred lab is largely worthless in comparison to several aspects of the breed standard, so I'm the last guy to pretend I'm driving a fancy car.

Growing up, we rescued a purebred Cocker Spaniel after our Doberman died. Rusty, the Cocker, was probably clinically retarded and for sure, suffered from ADHD. Ruined the breed, and hunting breeds in general, for my parents. It only takes one to make or break someone's take on a particular dog.

No not really I just think the whole “a silver is not a real lab” thing is funny.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Well, I'm fairly certain I never said "a silver is not a real lab", so I'll leave you to your inside humor on the subject. If a silver hunts like Remi did, that dog is more of a lab IMO than the one I own regardless of what breed standards are.

 

[jagermeister]

This is a little off subject, anybody else watch Westminster Dog Show last night? It goes into great detail about about each breed and its history, I have watched in religiously since I was in middle school. I have always been curious why water fowl hunters don't get poodles? Is there a reason labs dominate the duck hunting world, I would think the fact that poodles not shedding would be a big advantage.

Mainly because they are pussies... Fair weather dogs. The not shedding part is nice, but the lack of drive and shear will compared to a well bred Labrador makes them largely worthless in a duck blind. I've seen labradoodles that were half decent but most still don't compare.

 

[Schu72]

Both of my Labs were/are Dudleys. I just love the look. We specifically sought them out. They cannot be shown in competition, but are recognized as 100% labrador retrievers. Don't know enough about silvers to form a strong opinion. I'd always heard they had weimer in them.

 

[Bigcountry40]

Mainly because they are pussies... Fair weather dogs. The not shedding part is nice, but the lack of drive and shear will compared to a well bred Labrador makes them largely worthless in a duck blind. I've seen labradoodles that were half decent but most still don't compare.

I gotcha thank you for the explanation, I got a good chuckle from the poodles are pussies statement. So poodles are like fat kids doing suicides in gym class.

 

[Sgt Fury]

Mainly because they are pussies... Fair weather dogs. The not shedding part is nice, but the lack of drive and shear will compared to a well bred Labrador makes them largely worthless in a duck blind. I've seen labradoodles that were half decent but most still don't compare.

View attachment 73028