The evening of January 21st

[brock ratcliff]

You know, I've been concerned about the deer numbers for four years now. In 2007, in August and September, the deer around Sean's place in VC disappeared. Imagine if you will a 200 acre tract covered with BECs, typically logging over 100,000 pics and suddenly dropping to nothing. It wasn't just his place either...the entire Salt Creek Valley seemed void of deer...we werent seeing them anywhere. I suspected EHD, but the DOW said it was localized if at all....BS. Sean decided from the info he gathered off his BECs there would be no more does shot on their place. They haven't shot one since, and they are seeing deer again. There are still very few in the Valley, but Sean has 'em. It has taken several years to see a rebound, but at least they have. The rest of VC is a wasteland likely due to the DOW still saying "kill em"!

I think the DOW is out of touch....they act like they know what we have, but they don't. We have nearly nothing left here. Wish the folks in charge of setting bag limits had a freakin clue. If they did, they wouldn't be interested in an early muzzy season to kill off more doe!

 

[Jackalope]

You know, I've been concerned about the deer numbers for four years now. In 2007, in August and September, the deer around Sean's place in VC disappeared. Imagine if you will a 200 acre tract covered with BECs, typically logging over 100,000 pics and suddenly dropping to nothing. It wasn't just his place either...the entire Salt Creek Valley seemed void of deer...we werent seeing them anywhere. I suspected EHD, but the DOW said it was localized if at all....BS. Sean decided from the info he gathered off his BECs there would be no more does shot on their place. They haven't shot one since, and they are seeing deer again. There are still very few in the Valley, but Sean has 'em. It has taken several years to see a rebound, but at least they have. The rest of VC is a wasteland likely due to the DOW still saying "kill em"!

I think the DOW is out of touch....they act like they know what we have, but they don't. We have nearly nothing left here. Wish the folks in charge of setting bag limits had a freakin clue. If they did, they wouldn't be interested in an early muzzy season to kill off more doe!

That's the thing Brock they do have a clue. We're not talking about a bunch of idiots, they know full well what they're doing. Just as you can use regulated hunters to limit harvest and increase population, you can also use them to decimate populations. All you have to do is lie and tell them there are to many, then give them more tags and seasons. The vast majority of them are localized and uninformed. The same powers that can be used for conservation, can be used for decimation.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Thats the thing, Joe. I try to be reasonable and give the benefit of doubt...its a tough job ya know. Then, I go for another long walk with little to no deer sign, and I get really pissed off. How is it, as dumb as I am, I know there are very few deer, and the King of Deer says we have too many? Youre dang right he knows it, if he is at all good at his job, which they say he is. My question is why? Why in the hell is it necessary to wipe em out? I sure haven't received a reduction on insurance, anyone else?

Give me a day or two without looking for deer and I'll be reasonable again....BTW, I did see a ton of coon tracks. Why doesn't the DOW declare war on them? They tear up a lot more corn than deer.

 

[Jackalope]

Thats the thing, Joe. I try to be reasonable and give the benefit of doubt...its a tough job ya know. Then, I go for another long walk with little to no deer sign, and I get really pissed off. How is it, as dumb as I am, I know there are very few deer, and the King of Deer says we have too many? Youre dang right he knows it, if he is at all good at his job, which they say he is. My question is why? Why in the hell is it necessary to wipe em out? I sure haven't received a reduction on insurance, anyone else?

Give me a day or two without looking for deer and I'll be reasonable again....BTW, I did see a ton of coon tracks. Why doesn't the DOW declare war on them? They tear up a lot more corn than deer.

When was the last time someone submitted an insurance claim after hitting a coon? They're responsible for the majority of crop damage, but it's of a better benifit to blame the deer. They can use that to support their too many deer lie. You can't tell me as a dumb redneck I can spot the difference between coon and deer damage, yet not a single dnr biologist all the way tithe top can do the same...

 

[Kaiser878]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say it was easy up there man. lol.. You still have to scout, hunt, and cam your ass off. I had 128 hours in the stand before I shot that deer.. And it was a stand JD put me in, I had never set foot on that property before.. All I did was tap the release.. But I did pass on about a 140 8pt two weeks earlier that I had on cam, and had a 150 class in range that I had never seen just a week later as I was walking to get a seat from a stand

You will never hear me say you, Jd, mike or the rest have it "easy" and you don't bust your ass. Ever!! Lol. However don't assume others don't put in the same effort and intensity as you guys but without the success. Someone from vc can do the same thing. If the property isn't there to find, you can bust your ass harder than all of y'all combined and it's not going to happen. There are far less successful people in this state that bust their ass just the same. What I want to see is an Ohio like y'all hunt. Not an Ohio like what I have seen happen in vc and much of the rest of the state.

When Jd put me on one of his properties I didn't bust my ass any less or more that i did in vc.. Ask him if I was a slacker.. I started running cams with him on that place back in late June.. Was out there every weekend either checking cams, listening to him, or driving in circles around it with my Binos.. I talked to neighboring landowners and hunters when I saw them. I scouted, poured over maps, moved cams, and hung stands.. I was around every weekend.. I drove back 3.5 hours from a piece of ass Indiana one Sunday just to come back and check cameras since he had the time that evening.. And when season came there wasn't hardly a morning or evening my ass wasn't in a stand rain or shine, and every free evening I had during the week.. On November 2nd when I shot that deer I had 128 hours in a stand for the season..

2 weeks ago I carried over 400 lbs of corn out to the property and set up 4 cams.. I'm not even hunting there anymore this year.. All I want to know is what made it, where they are in late season, and see any new bucks that may be holed up there... Preparation for next deer season started the day after Muzzy. Durring muzzy i was hunting somewhere else on one of Alexs properties. Durring lunch I made the 15 mile drive to the other property just to drive around and see who was hunting around it and where... I could have drove 3 miles home and took a nap between hunts. But I drove 15 miles to the prop JD let me hunt just to check on it and see If i could get another piece of the puzzle.. This is nothing new to me.. This is how I've always hunted.. I busted my ass just the same in VC.. Always have.. The point I am trying to make is, busting your ass is not enough, and it's not the sole factor that makes someone a successful hunter.. Look at poor buckless fluteman.. Busts his ass.. It just isn't happening for him. But his lack of success, or mine in VC, doesn't make us any less of a "hunter" than Mike, You, or JD.

Mike, Flutey is close to you.. Lets try something, take him under your wing next season, show him some property lines and let him go. I bet he smacks a good one next year.. I would put money on it.. Not saying the property you hunt is "easy".. Or that what you do is "easy".. We know better than that.. What I am saying is, he's no less of a hunter that anyone else. And once we prove this point.. Lets try to make Ohio like Athens, like Tuscarawas, like urbana.. And reverse this crap that VC, Washington, and other vast areas of ohio has seen.

This doesnt prove your theory at all. You say for mike to put greg where the bucks are? Why? greg has been on two great bucks all year. STT and claw. Not to mention his wife smoked a 130 in october. He is still getting daylight pics of atleast one of them also. You say guys hunt just as hard but dont have the success that say mike or JD have because there are not good bucks there????? I dont know how much greg hunts or what his story is as far as hunting goes, as we dont talk much anymore. But he is def not hunting in an area with a shortage of bucks. It always seemed like he was plagued with bad luck.

 

[Jackalope]

[/B]

This doesnt prove your theory at all. You say for mike to put greg where the bucks are? Why? greg has been on two great bucks all year. STT and claw. Not to mention his wife smoked a 130 in october. He is still getting daylight pics of atleast one of them also. You say guys hunt just as hard but dont have the success that say mike or JD have because there are not good bucks there????? I dont know how much greg hunts or what his story is as far as hunting goes, as we dont talk much anymore. But he is def not hunting in an area with a shortage of bucks. It always seemed like he was plagued with bad luck.

As usual you missed the entire point of the whole post and picked out one thing.... But ill entertain you. True, He is usually plagued with bad luck. But the theory still holds true. Did you read the rest of the post at all. I hunted vc for what? 5 years. There were some good bucks around but not many. Never connected.. I busted my ass there the same as fluteman has. I busted my ass the same in vc as indie here. Are you trying to tell me my bad luck somehow didn't follow me north? I had the tall8 dead to rights probably a 140 class deer, didn't shoot a 150 on a 15 yard chip shot as it was too dark where he was standing and didnt know he was that big till he moved into another area that didn't offer a shot. and another very nice buck on the ground came grunting up right by a stand I was walking to to pull a seat after I shot mine somewhere else.. Are you somehow telling me I left my bad luck in vc three times last season? I'm a firm believer that we make our own luck, but Greg hasn't put in any less effort than anyone else. Nor has Jesse, nor a whole list of others. We can blame hocus pocus all we want. But the fact remains. Just as I did, if fluteman spent that same dedication and effort on mikes property it would happen. And I'll say it again that's not saying these properties are "easier" to hunt. Far from it. You still have to bust ass as you know. You can't plop uglykat in there and expect him to score. But it does have a higher chance of paying off when that same effort is applied. I didnt take that property for granted and slack off. I didn't say "wow this is a Jd property all I have to do is show up and that's all that's required." Hell no, you still have to bust ass. I see that in what Jd does, what you do, and what mike does.. But I also see that in what others do too and hocus pocus isn't all to blame. Do you want to talk effort and applied deadication. I reuined my marriage and divorced my wife in pursuit of a deer like the one I killed this year. Hell, I did it for a shot at a deer like the tall 8 that I actually passed on because I knew there was a bigger one around. And I did all that before I even hunted with Jd while still hunting vc. I told her long ago that I hunted and if she had a problem with it there was the door. It took 10 years but she eventually walked out it. Now if I would have been hunting all along on the property where Jd put me. I might still be married as I haven't bowhunted but two hours since nov 7th. lmao.

 

[Gern186]

Joe,

You had a huge head start this year from JD....an experienced big buck hunter that set you up BIG TIME.....you have already laid this out for us.......why don't you ask JD to put Greg into one of the stands that were reserved for you next year and see if he kills a big one? After all, then you could be sure that he would be in a stand that you know can produce. If he shoots a big one, then your theory holds some value..... I know you put in time scouting and running cams, but the fact remains that you were hunting ground that holds plenty of trophy sized deer. Chances are you could have hung a stand in lots of places on that farm and had a shooter come into range sooner or later.

Not everybody has what it takes to do it year in and year out. Some guys will get it done once every 10 years, some 8 out of 10.... and some it will never happen. There are no guarantees in hunting unless you are in a high fence.

 

[Jackalope]

Joe,

You had a huge head start this year from JD....an experienced big buck hunter that set you up BIG TIME.....you have already laid this out for us.......why don't you ask JD to put Greg into one of the stands that were reserved for you next year and see if he kills a big one? After all, then you could be sure that he would be in a stand that you know can produce. If he shoots a big one, then your theory holds some value..... I know you put in time scouting and running cams, but the fact remains that you were hunting ground that holds plenty of trophy sized deer. Chances are you could have hung a stand in lots of places on that farm and had a shooter come into range sooner or later.

Not everybody has what it takes to do it year in and year out. Some guys will get it done once every 10 years, some 8 out of 10.... and some it will never happen. There are no guarantees in hunting unless you are in a high fence.

True. Jd did set me up BIG TIME on that property. Jd was an awesome mentor but I don't think he will tell you he gave it to me on a silver platter either on that specific property besides getting me permission to hunt there. Now the one where I shot my buck, lol.. Hell yes that was 1000% him....

About your theory of hanging a stand anywhere on that property and having one waltz by. I'm not the only person on that farm. Another guy has sole permission on the largest chunk of timber right in the core of it. I basically had fingers and fencelines. He hunted there often with a buddy and to my knowledge didn't score. 4 guys bowhunted it often before shotgun and then all 4 of them sat for 6 days straight durring shotgun, sun up till sundown, to my knowledge none of them scored. Yet i had three in range durring early season, only one of which i had on cam.. But i figured out the deer movement pretty quick. And yes, Jd did help with that tremendously, but he never really told me I have to do this or that. For the most part he let me figure it out. Actualy sometimes I would get frustrated because i looked up to him and would ask what he thought about a stand and he would always say sounds good. Everywhere i tried, every plan "yeah, sounds good" lol.. So that hang a stand and sack one really doesn't hold water with me man there are others there that did just that and never scored.

 

[Mountaineer]

God Bless Vinton County...

Joe..You gotta believe they exist.

 

[hickslawns]

:smiley_blackeye::smiley_chuck::smiley_cowboy:

Mountaineer just threw some salt in a wound. Now the question remains: Were these VC deer or is Mountaineer just screwing with Joe?

 

[Jackalope]

:smiley_blackeye::smiley_chuck::smiley_cowboy:

Mountaineer just threw some salt in a wound. Now the question remains: Were these VC deer or is Mountaineer just screwing with Joe?

The deer are there in places.. You put enough hunters in one area someone is going to kill them. Stop in granny's Resturant on sr-50 in vc. They take a picture of every good buck that came in as they were the check station also.. You will see the binder gets smaller and smaller every year and they have binders dating back decades. Something you have to understand also in vc is poaching is king. You guys would shit bricks if you saw the hunting pressure vc gets in November and during shotgun. And probably have a conniption fit at the lawlessness. This doesn't explain the lack of deer though as that stuff has been going on since the dnr had laws.

I could have shot a p&y class deer every year.. All it would have taken is driving the hills in the truck during shotgun. A high power going off at 2am in most places doesn't even warrant a call the police down there.

 

[brock ratcliff]

My Grandpa quit bothering to call the law...there was no point. No cared. He told one of the regular poachers to stop shooting the deer in his cloverfields...he told him this as they were leaving church on Sunday morning. The man said he never shot a deer in grandpa's fields. Grandpa then informed him he had been standing within 50 feet of the poacher's truck on Saturday night when he shot two does... That was in the late 70's. In 2006, three of us saw a guy shoot a doe in front of Sean's house. Chased him back to his house. Called the sherrif and WO. Neither responded. We told them about the spine-shot doe flopping around - they said we could have it.... VC is what it is.

 

[mrex]

I think the DOW is out of touch....they act like they know what we have, but they don't. We have nearly nothing left here. Wish the folks in charge of setting bag limits had a freakin clue. If they did, they wouldn't be interested in an early muzzy season to kill off more doe!

I see a parallel in the solution for deer hunting Fayette County with the late Sam Kinison’s solution for world hunger...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7ehccspao

But the fact remains. Just as I did, if fluteman spent that same dedication and effort on mikes property it would happen.

I don’t know Greg personally, but from what I’ve read, I don’t think he would be very interested in killing a big buck that I put him on. I know my boys have become adamant about “Dad” having little to nothing to do with their success. It’s as if there’s an * on the mount if I’m involved.

Lots of people hunt “mikes property” and their den walls look different than mine. So like you say…

that hang a stand and sack one really doesn't hold water with me man there are others there that did just that and never scored.

Not saying there aren't 160 class deer around. However they are few and far between and have a shitload more timber to hide in than up here.

I know we like to use numbers when debating topics on this forum so here’s an interesting stat when comparing the current trophy potential of Vinton County with Champaign County. This years BBBC class contains 10 entries from VC and only 4 from Champaign County. Granted, VC certainly sees more hunting pressure but 2.5 times? And I thought this is really interesting, the land of milk and honey, Athens County, where trophy bucks abound, only has 10 entries…how can this be? And I can say from experience that very few big bucks slip through the cracks in Athens as we have more scorers per square mile than any county in the state!

 

[Jackalope]

From what I have seen driving around champaign looking, far far far more people hunt VC.. 2.5x more isn't even close. I would be willing to bet more NR hunt vc than residents hunt champaign.Ok. That may be an exaggeration. Lol maybe not. Have you seen the stream of trucks on 50 during the rut and shotgun. Hell. They stand outside the gas station talking to people trying to get permission somewhere. Granny's does something like 40% of their Resturant business in a 3 week period during rut and shotgun. So maybe it isn't too far fetched.

 

[JD Boyd]

So what are you gonna propose to the odnr as to what changes you want to see? Maybe you have mentioned it and I missed it some how... I stopped in at the elevator today and from what I was told the farm bureau wants more done about the deer population. With crop prices increasing, rent on land going up to $350 per acre in some areas of the state ( Pitsticks just rented land west of urbana at that price and a farm right in front of this house I'm living in went for $315) and the cost to get it growing they want the deer herd cut in half. I hope this is not true but we all know the farm bureau has quite a bit of push as to what decisions the odnr make...

 

[JD Boyd]

True. Jd did set me up BIG TIME on that property. Jd was an awesome mentor but I don't think he will tell you he gave it to me on a silver platter either on that specific property besides getting me permission to hunt there. Now the one where I shot my buck, lol.. Hell yes that was 1000% him....

About your theory of hanging a stand anywhere on that property and having one waltz by. I'm not the only person on that farm. Another guy has sole permission on the largest chunk of timber right in the core of it. I basically had fingers and fencelines. He hunted there often with a buddy and to my knowledge didn't score. 4 guys bowhunted it often before shotgun and then all 4 of them sat for 6 days straight durring shotgun, sun up till sundown, to my knowledge none of them scored. Yet i had three in range durring early season, only one of which i had on cam.. But i figured out the deer movement pretty quick. And yes, Jd did help with that tremendously, but he never really told me I have to do this or that. For the most part he let me figure it out. Actualy sometimes I would get frustrated because i looked up to him and would ask what he thought about a stand and he would always say sounds good. Everywhere i tried, every plan "yeah, sounds good" lol.. So that hang a stand and sack one really doesn't hold water with me man there are others there that did just that and never scored.

Hey, you could of shot one a week before out of a stand that was already up for ya...lol... Too dark for ya to see his rack...lol

As for the stand I put you in up at the woods, every big buck hunter knows that when rut is coming in he is gonna want to push his doe to a high point in a woods where he can see whats coming down wind and smell whats coming upwind. That stand is in the perfect spot for that. Add you got a heavily traveled road due north about a 100 yards and a good ridge for them to lay on and watch for intruders you got a perfect spot. Add on top of that about 20 does in the woods on regular basis you got a wonderful smell in the air...lol

 

[mrex]

JD - I may have asked you this before but do you range up into Logan Co? And if so, what's the story with that stretch of highway leading up to Mad River Mtn? I drive through there every week on my way to Indiana and it looks like a freakin' petting zoo of deer and turkeys. I can see several ground blinds and shooting house stands on both sides of the road so somebody must be hunting it. I'm seeing more deer in those bottoms than the area around Honda and that's saying something.

 

[brock ratcliff]

I see a parallel in the solution for deer hunting Fayette County with the late Sam Kinison’s solution for world hunger...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7ehccspao




I don’t know Greg personally, but from what I’ve read, I don’t think he would be very interested in killing a big buck that I put him on. I know my boys have become adamant about “Dad” having little to nothing to do with their success. It’s as if there’s an * on the mount if I’m involved.

Lots of people hunt “mikes property” and their den walls look different than mine. So like you say…





I know we like to use numbers when debating topics on this forum so here’s an interesting stat when comparing the current trophy potential of Vinton County with Champaign County. This years BBBC class contains 10 entries from VC and only 4 from Champaign County. Granted, VC certainly sees more hunting pressure but 2.5 times? And I thought this is really interesting, the land of milk and honey, Athens County, where trophy bucks abound, only has 10 entries…how can this be? And I can say from experience that very few big bucks slip through the cracks in Athens as we have more scorers per square mile than any county in the state!

I pointed this very thing out on the 1995 thread the other day. If I were you, I'd be in Tonk's ear to get the herd back to a good, entertaining number in this neck of the woods. Do you really need more folks stumbling past you with flashlights?

Hey, what was it you said about killing above 35% of the herd?

 

[brock ratcliff]

Mrex, I'll answer my question for you. You stated it was common knowledge if you kill more than 35%, the herd will decline.

Here is Tonk's suggestion from Wild Ohio, 2005 fall edition Whitetail Special:

"Landowners can help by allowing deer hunting and actively recruiting good deer hunters. A good rule-of-thumb is that landowners annually need to harvest 50 percent of the deer they believe are on their property and about 75 percent of these should be antlerless. By doing this, landowners will be managing for stable deer populations. By harvesting anything less, they are managing for increasing herd size."

From this, I gather Tonk's goal is to kill off 50% each year...
Seems at the time he still felt DVA's were the only good measure of herd density. I wonder what changed with DVAs to alter that opinion.lmao

 

[mrex]

Mrex, I'll answer my question for you. You stated it was common knowledge if you kill more than 35%, the herd will decline.

Here is Tonk's suggestion from Wild Ohio, 2005 fall edition Whitetail Special:

"Landowners can help by allowing deer hunting and actively recruiting good deer hunters. A good rule-of-thumb is that landowners annually need to harvest 50 percent of the deer they believe are on their property and about 75 percent of these should be antlerless. By doing this, landowners will be managing for stable deer populations. By harvesting anything less, they are managing for increasing herd size."

From this, I gather Tonk's goal is to kill off 50% each year...
Seems at the time he still felt DVA's were the only good measure of herd density. I wonder what changed with DVAs to alter that opinion.lmao

Please pay special attention to the last paragraph...maybe read it out loud a couple times.

http://ohiodnr.com/tabid/9565/Default.aspx