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Lundy

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Lol. Lundy. Man. I know youre not trying to imply the DNR added the bonus gun "just for funs." and had zero intention of increasing harvest through increased opertunity. Even with its addition today we are killing less deer than we did back then. Logic would dictate that removal of the season would equate to even less dear being killed today.

Well if it is changed we will find out, sortof, be hard to look at gun kills and equate a change one way or the other.

I don't personally care either way except I hate to see any hunting opportunity reduced for anyone, anywhere. Notice I said hunting opportunities not killing. I still don't see the problem as days permitted but the numbers killed. Drop the limit back to 2 and leave the days alone, doesn't that accomplish the same end goal?
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
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I actually think the additional days degrades the quality of the gun season. The number of hunters get diluted and the deer activity seems very slow after the first day. The number of hunters in the woods mid week is laughable. For me growing up, the allure of gun season was the action. Having groups of deer come running from one woodblock to the next. Never knowing where or when they were going to come busting into your set up. Now gun season is almost like bow hunting...at least in the areas I have access to.
 
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Lundy

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Now gun season is almost like bow hunting...at least in the areas I have access to.

The one thing I have learned through all of these threads is that everyone's impression is formed on what they experience based upon the lands they hunt.

The guy like me hunting in Athens views the deer seasons, especially gun, differently than someone that hunts in the flat open ag areas of the state. What equates to me may be totally foriegn to someone hunting a different area and terrain.

I hate the big drives only because of what I experience in the area that I hunt. Some seem to like the deer being pushed around by other hunters versus natural deer movement. I guess it all how you were raised deer hunting and where and how you hunt today.

I WANT my gun season to be like it's bow season.
 

Jackalope

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Well if it is changed we will find out, sortof, be hard to look at gun kills and equate a change one way or the other.

I don't personally care either way except I hate to see any hunting opportunity reduced for anyone, anywhere. Notice I said hunting opportunities not killing. I still don't see the problem as days permitted but the numbers killed. Drop the limit back to 2 and leave the days alone, doesn't that accomplish the same end goal?

Just the way it is.. The bonus gun was implemented to increase kills and lower the population. That has been over accomplished in many areas. To do the reverse is would need to be be eliminated. Lowering the tags and leaving gun would only help if they were lowered to a miniscule amount like 1.. To reduce the population they took the tags from 3 to 6 and added a gun season. With the reduced population of today you would have to go beyond that in the opposite direction to recover. You can't just go back to the way it was before, because back then you had more deer. Depending on how little you have left in an area even the way it was before may be too much. I say to start do it on a county by county basis, 2 tags and eliminate bonus gun.
 
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Curran

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Seems like not too long ago several of us from TOO were at Ohio's open house events talking to the people from the DOW about Our deer population not being what they were reporting. That there werent that many deer, that we had been reducing the population, that we had killing too many deer in certain areas, etc. Many of those comments were met with dismissive replies, that followed a script-like response that would suggest our observations in the field were wrong. that we needed to continue on the path of killing even more deer. Yada, yada, yada.

Well, it seems that some things may have changed... at least according to this article in Sunday's Dispatch.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/12/09/deer-harvest-continues-recent-drops.html

By Dave Golowenski
For The Columbus Dispatch Sunday December 9, 2012 7:46 AM

Comments: 0


Because all deer hunting is local — that is, restricted to what wanders into an individual’s vision and field of fire — 400,000 hunters produce about that many opinions in terms of what went down during the state’s weeklong gun season that ended last Sunday.

One assessment that counts rather a lot is that of biologist Mike Tonkovich, the Ohio Division of Wildlife’s point man for deer management. Here it is:

“I’m pretty pleased with the way the season turned out,” he said. “I thought we’d be (down) 5 percent to 10 percent from last year.”

The count was 86,964, a drop of about 3.7 percent from the 90,282 deer checked in 2011. The 2012 results, moreover, continued a decline from peak harvest years. In 2010, hunters checked more than 105,000 whitetails during deer gun week, meaning this year’s decline in harvest follows a 14 percent tumble.

Over a two-year span, then, the gun-week totals fell about 17.2 percent.

Last year’s weak showing likely resulted from a lot of standing corn late and some lousy weather, particularly on opening day of the gun season, Tonkovich said. Hunters took 23,600 on a rainy Monday in 2011. The count climbed considerably, to 29,297, on Nov. 26, the 2012 opener.

Given strong archery results thus far, the 2012-13 deer season might produce a harvest down only slightly from a year ago, when hunters reported killing about 219,700 whitetails.

“We’re about 1 percent down from last year from the opening day of the bow season through the last day of the (weeklong) gun season,” Tonkovich said. “If we have favorable (weather) conditions during the next two gun seasons, we are likely to end up around or slightly down from last year’s harvest.”

A two-day statewide gun season is set for Dec. 15-16, and the popular muzzleloader season will run four days, Jan. 5-8, 2013.

Still, last year’s count totaled about 41,600 fewer deer, a decline of about 15.9 percent, compared with the 261,000 taken during the 2009-10 season.

So, after years of liberal regulations designed to knock down numbers, are fewer deer roaming the Ohio landscape? Maybe so.

The number of deer hunters hasn’t dropped precipitously, although the sale of resident tags fell about 8 percent between 2000 and 2011. That drop to an extent has been offset by a 152 percent increase of nonresident tags during the same period.

“About one in nine or 10 of our deer hunters is now coming from out of state,” Tonkovich said. “ We went from about 15,000 nonresident licenses in 2000 to about 38,000 in 2011.”

While the number of resident vs. nonresident hunters is not quite a wash, the biggest factor in declining deer harvests appears to be fewer deer, a situation not welcome to every hunter but certainly OK with many of the state’s farmers and tree growers.

Both agricultural groups, their members having suffered losses caused by feeding deer, have called for herd shrinkage. The Ohio Farm Bureau several years ago publicly declared that deer numbers statewide should be around 250,000, around half the current estimated population.

The liberal granting of nuisance permits, which allow landowners to kill offending deer, has helped alleviate some of the local deer damage problems.

Tonkovich, moreover, suggested that the state’s deer regulations for 2013-14 could be in for their first major overhaul in a number of years. The aim, after years of liberal limits have brought deer numbers to what are considered target levels in many counties, would be to maintain the population.

“You might not see a Zone C anymore, just (zones) A and B,” he said.

Zone C, which covers much of southern, southeastern and eastern Ohio, has the most liberal bag limits. While bag limits could become stricter overall, deer numbers can be managed with the availability — or nonavailability — of antlerless permits, Tonkovich said.


Wonder what's next? :smiley_chinrub:
 

Hedgelj

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One assessment that counts rather a lot is that of biologist Mike Tonkovich, the Ohio Division of Wildlife’s point man for deer management. Here it is:

“I’m pretty pleased with the way the season turned out,” he said. “I thought we’d be (down) 5 percent to 10 percent from last year.”
Bad weather last year, great weather this year and he thought it'd be down even more..... whiskey tango foxtrot

Joe,
I'm going to disagree with your wanting to get rid of bonus weekend. I agree with whomever posted above that the additional opportunities are diluting the total hunting pressure. Other than monday and saturday there were only a handful of shots heard the other days of gun season in ashland county. Other than monday and saturday, my brother and dad only saw a handful of cars in Egypt Valley Wildlife area. It used to be that the "orange army" was out in force the entire week b/c that was the only opportunity you had. I remember a lot more groups doing the big "scare the deer out of the state" style drives then as well. I'm not seeing that nearly as much now. I think now is better and even with the opportunity not many hunters are skilled enough to truly take advantage of all the deer you can truly kill here in ohio.
 

Jackalope

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Wonder what's next? :smiley_chinrub:


At the beginning of the conversation I gave him my word that we we're "off the record" and Our convo wouldn't end up online. The state is taking a good hard look at our deer numbers. And we will see some changes in the near future. Changes that I believe are a step in the right direction.


With that said.. I think what's coming is a step in the right direction.. We will see if it actually accomplishes anything in regards to repairing our huntable population.. Or if it's just another dance to the same old song. As the old saying goes there's more than one way to skin a cat. Once the details are hammered out we need to make sure it's not just another way to skin a cat.

A year ago December I said this..
This is true... However we must be watchful that a reduction is tags is enough to regrow the population VS hold it steady... It's not going to do much good to reduce the tags to a levet that simply maintains the low level... The lower the deer numbers the less harvests are needed to maintain them.... We must caution that when they finally do back off, they don't sell us a hill of beans like they're doing us a favor.

In your article Tonk said this.
Tonkovich, moreover, suggested that the state’s deer regulations for 2013-14 could be in for their first major overhaul in a number of years. The aim, after years of liberal limits have brought deer numbers to what are considered target levels in many counties, would be to maintain the population."


So we will see what the final regulations are.. I think what they're is doing is a step in the right direction and needs to be done first before other changes can be made. It's the first step and lays the groundwork for better manageability. But it can go either way depending on the limits set. My goal has always been two fold.. Stop the decline, rebuild the damage. It has never been. Stop the decline, maintain the damage. We will see where the regulations fall and go from there. This however is a very positive step in the right direction and I applaud Tonk and the DNR for finally letting back off the throttle, taking a big hard look, and having the guts to actually recommend changes.
 
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brock ratcliff

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The issue I have is that they are still managing "dead animals". Nothing to be done about it from where I sit. My only hope is that in the coming years, they will not be able to gauge the incline in population any better than they did the decline, so we will see the numbers swell again before the extermination policy begins again. It's an ebb and flow deal. I can live with it, it's how it's always been, the only difference is it took longer for the DOW to start acknowledging there was in fact a decline...that's what worried me, they didn't seem to know the plan was working.
 

Lundy

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The harvest history does not support that any over harvest that has or has not occured is due to the Bonus gun season.

The harvest growth has been in archery
 

brock ratcliff

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So, let's shorten archery season and gun season! :) I understand that you no longer bow hunt, Lundy. I understand that you don't want to see your "opportunity" cut back. What is the solution? Surely you don't think that cutting out the "bonus" weekend is a bad idea if the DOW decides to ease up on harvest? If so, please explain, I'm all ears and would like to hear your thoughts.

I honestly don't think the DOW will make any cuts in days afield. I believe they will simply cut back on bag limits, and those cuts will be minor.
 

Jackalope

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The harvest history does not support that any over harvest that has or has not occured is due to the Bonus gun season.

The harvest growth has been in archery

Are you saying the DNR was wrong when they added bonus gun to increase the harvest on antlerless deer?
 

Jackalope

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How does the bonus gun weekend increase the harvest of antlerless deer when you could never use one of the antlerless $15 tags during it?

Two extra days for people to shoot at deer with a gun = more does shot with a gun IMO.


Lundy tries to say that isn't true. It doesn't increase the harvest. Only spreads it out.. But if he were right we could open gun the weekend after thanksgiving and leave it open the rest of the year.. No reason not to right?

While he is right that there has been a major increase in archery harvests, it doesn't negate the fact that removing bonus gun would save a good percentage of the 20,000 deer killed those two days.
 
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Lundy

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My point is that all gun harvest has stayed almost flat since 2002 with the exception of the addition of youth gun.

The segment of hunting that has increased the yearly harvest has been archery.

Archery has 4 months of season, gun has 13 days.

Everyone seems to want to eliminate part of the gun season to cut back on harvest. Why is there such a rush to eliminate a portion of the gun season when it is obvious that the harvest increase over the last 10 years is from the archery harvest. Wouldn't the first conclusion be to cut the area where the harvest increase has occured? Let's cut out the month of October from the bow season :)

I also do not think there will be any reduction in seasons for Gun or archery, just tag and harvest restrictions.
 

Lundy

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And of course the ODNR added that weekend to kill more deer but they also added it to provide more weekend hunting opportunity

Prior the 2 day being added there were only two total weekend days for deer gun hunting that were for sure. The MZ season did not always have any weekend days some years and other years just one weekend day because of fitting it between Christmas and New Years
 

bowhunter1023

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And of course the ODNR added that weekend to kill more deer but they also added it to provide more weekend hunting opportunity.

And as a result of increased hunting opportunity, the harvest numbers increase and subsequently help the DNR continue to thin the herd. It wasn't solely about opportunity to hunt, but opportunity to kill. You have to see the entire picture Lundy...
 

Jackalope

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My point is that all gun harvest has stayed almost flat since 2002 with the exception of the addition of youth gun.

The segment of hunting that has increased the yearly harvest has been archery.

Archery has 4 months of season, gun has 13 days.

Everyone seems to want to eliminate part of the gun season to cut back on harvest. Why is there such a rush to eliminate a portion of the gun season when it is obvious that the harvest increase over the last 10 years is from the archery harvest. Wouldn't the first conclusion be to cut the area where the harvest increase has occured? Let's cut out the month of October from the bow season :)

I also do not think there will be any reduction in seasons for Gun or archery, just tag and harvest restrictions.

And it will remain flat if you increase opportunity as you decrease population which is what we have done. Less population + Increased Opportunity = flat harvest. It's a bisecting curve. As for "why gun" and not bow.. Archery hunters account for only about 38% of the harvest.. It's easy to see where the majority impact is coming from.. As for me I wouldn;t care one bit if season opened Oct 15th is it meant we could begin to rebound the deer population. Don't be so sure a bonus gun reduction or restriction won't happen. I don't think it will this year though.
 

Jackalope

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And of course the ODNR added that weekend to kill more deer but they also added it to provide more weekend hunting opportunity

Prior the 2 day being added there were only two total weekend days for deer gun hunting that were for sure. The MZ season did not always have any weekend days some years and other years just one weekend day because of fitting it between Christmas and New Years

So now that the herd is down we should just ignore it and leave it alone because you want more days with a gun because you don't bowhunt anymore?? Ohio has always been an archery priority state, gun season is the clean up crew to make the numbers. You know that.. That's why they added a bonus gun instead of opening archery earlier like in KY.. So stands to reason that once that tool has served it's purpose it will be restricted or eliminated.
 
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Lundy

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Now that I am in Jacksonville and not in airports typing on my phone I actually read everything.

No, I do agree that Ohio is an archery first state. I do not agree that the gun season is just for mop up duty.

I strongly believe that it is about providing opportunity to the hunters of Ohio to hunt a resource in the state. I have heard a wide range of numbers in regards to hunters that participate in the gun seasons, 440,000 - 480,000. That is a lot of paticipation from hunters that has never been taken lightly by the ODNR and I don't expect them to take them lightly anytime soon. A large number of these hunters want the weekend days to hunt. A large reason the MZ season was moved back to Jan again was to provide the assurance that there would be weekend days to hunt. Hunters compalining was one of the reasons for the move. The ODNR is not going to wipe out 33% of the currently available weekend days to gun hunt without a great reason to do so. I don't think that they think they have cause for such action.

I suppose we could just eliminate the week long gun season and have 3 -4 consecutive 2 day weekend seasons in a row starting right after Thanksgiving

Everyone is so quick to eliminate opportunity, be careful what you wish for. We are not hunting too much we are killing too many deer.

We are just going to agree to disagree on this one