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finelyshedded

You know what!!!
Supporting Member
32,973
274
SW Ohio
How can you say taking away the 2 day gun is pissing on other hunters when in the beginning it never existed. I'm not totally disagreeing with anyone Lundy. What me, you or Joe blow(sorry Joe) wants or thinks prolly falls on deaf ears anyway.

You do bring up a good point about the xbow popularity but compound is at an all time high as well. That's why I said reduce about 3-4 weeks for them as well. Not permanently just till numbers come back up in some areas.

I do see one problem about taking away the two day, that is a weekend where many hunters who don't have any vacation time left to use and that would hurt them the most.

I'm just trying to discuss what options we have and not picking on just the gunners.
 
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huntn2

Senior Member
6,097
171
Hudson, OH
Lundy,

No one is looking to piss down any other hunters back...that is merely your perception. We are simply discussing ways in which we can quickly pull back on the number of deer being harvested. We all agree, based on our experiences, the herd has been thinned too much. Regs cannot remain unchanged or the herd will suffer and therefore, so to will the hunting experiences we all enjoy.

People dislike change. Doesn't matter what facet of life, people generally hate change. This is especially true when something has to be taken away. However, feelings and emotions often must be pushed aside for the greater good. In this case, our opportunities need to be reduced (both days afield and permits) in order to drive change and protect the herd. People won't like it, but these changes are necessary if folks want to continue to be able to hunt deer, see deer and maybe even harvest a deer.

Look at companies for example. Many companies had to eliminate their 401k contributions to employees, bonus programs and freeze salaries over the past decade at one time or another. Do you think employees were in love with these changes? Hell no....but what were some alternatives? The companies could have laid more people off and cut back production, services, etc. Or, so as to not take back something that was once available to the employees...they could have ran the company into the ground financially till they had to close their doors and put everyone out of work...Don't know about you, but I was really quite alright giving up a bit of a really good thing to stay gainfully employed.

Our deer herd isn't all that different...you pull back or we won't have it to enjoy at all...
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,263
261
Lundy, everyone here hunts with a gun as well. It isn't a matter of putting the blame on "that guy" and wishing to do away with another's opportunity - its our's too! It was institued to lower the population. Its job is complete from my point of view. I doubt very much the DOW sees things as I do...
 

finelyshedded

You know what!!!
Supporting Member
32,973
274
SW Ohio
Lundy, everyone here hunts with a gun as well. It isn't a matter of putting the blame on "that guy" and wishing to do away with another's opportunity - its our's too! It was institued to lower the population. Its job is complete from my point of view. I doubt very much the DOW sees things as I do...

Great point Brock! I love gun hunting TOO but just trying to find ways to help get the numbers up.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
It probably a waste of time discussing changes to the bonus weekend when Tonk keeps talking about an early muzzleloader season.

We thought the same about other things too. "they'll never do that". But there are some changes brewing. I'm not going to say what they are. But it's something that's been screamed about before.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
I think some may be confused about where I am coming from.

I don't care one flip about the 2 day gun season personally. I have never shot a deer during the 2 day gun. No one that hunts with me has ever shot a deer during the 2 day gun. I don't care if I ever shoot a deer during the 2 day gun.

I have been reading on this site and others the concern for the dwindling deer herd for the last few years. Some have experienced it harder than others. Heck the Strouds Run outing was born from the deer herd reduction conversations.

Everybody has their own theory as to what has happened and why. I agree with some of the thoughts, some I don't. The ones that I don't agree with amount to little more than knee jerk reactions in my opinion.

The one common ground, it seems everyone shares, is to reduce the harvest to allow for a rebound of the deer populations. It also seems that most agree than excessive harvest has been the primary cause of the deer population reduction.

So one of the primary proposals being pushed by many here is the elimination of the 2 day gun season. It doesn't matter that the harvest increase we have experienced over the last 10 years has not come from the gun harvest. It doesn't matter that you will not realize a 1 to 1 reduction in harvest by eliminating the 2 day gun season. It doesn't matter that a group of hunters is asking for a reduction of hunter opportunity of another group. I guess that one shouldn't surprise me with how many don't like crossbows and never wanted them included in the archery seasons. Maybe you would like those outlawed now also, there's a 45,000 deer a year harvest reduction for you.

Having something bad occur that you want to change will always bring out the simple fix ideas to a complex problem. Eliminating the 2 day gun as the primary fix to the over harvest will no more fix the problem any more than banning assault rifles will stop mass shootings.

I am 100 % for all hunters and access to the the resource. I would like to see changes made that would effect the harvest without effecting the opportunity for any hunter to hunt any season. I would like to see expanded hunting opportunities, not less. I would like to see harvest management. We don't close Lake Erie to walleye fishing for a month due to low populations, we adjust the limits.

Personally I would like to see where I hunt in Athens County back to where it was in 2002. It was in the top 5 counties for gun season harvest with over 4100 deer taken during the week, this year it was 1983 deer and 2059 in 2011, and has not been in the top 10 counties for many years.

I get to hunt every day of every gun season, I'm lucky to be able to do that. Many hunters are not that fortunate and have limited days to hunt. That is why I am so opposed to the easy quick fix plan that does not address the problem of harvest, and assigns blame through restriction of opportunity for a problem that it is not responsible for.

2 day season, stay, go, doesn't effect me personally at all, zero, zip, but I refuse to piss on hunters, any hunters, without just cause, and I won't let anyone else do it either without at least voicing my opinion. I know my opinion is not popular here but it is what I beleive

You couldn't be more wrong. It has nothing to do with an animosity towards guns. Too bad you didn't have this attitude when the dnr decided to reduce the population. A shame you didn't scream about a loss of hunter opportunity and hunters rights when they decided to cut our population to the bone in most areas. Amazing how you can stand by and not care that they removed a massive chunk of our deer population but scream at hunters for wanting to fix it. Amazing how You can point a finger at us and scream we're little more than bigoted antis who are against hunters when we are the ones trying to stop the dnr from destroying our deer population. Imagine if you viewed the dnr reducing the population with the same attitude as you do people wanting to reduce gun season to help rebuild it. What the dnr has done to our deer population is FAR more damaging to hunting and hunters than removing a couple days of season. Yet somehow we are the ones who are against hunters.
 

Ohiosam

*Supporting Member*
12,038
205
Mahoning Co.
We thought the same about other things too. "they'll never do that". But there are some changes brewing. I'm not going to say what they are. But it's something that's been screamed about before.

If I had to guess the $15 antler less tags will probably go away. But not so much to lower the kill but because of money. Very few hunters are killing the 4,5,6 deer but tens of thousands of hunters are using the cheap tags for their 1 or 2 does. I can see (not saying I agree) the odnr dropping the $15 tags and adding the early ML season.
 
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Lundy

Member
1,312
141
Here is why I feel the way I do.

For the past 2 years I have heard always as a first response, eliminate the 2 day gun, as a fix to the over harvest. Many feel that the over harvest is significant and yet offer up again primarily the 2 day as the solution. The numbers easily show that when the 2 day was introduced in 2006 that the 7 day gun season kill dropped as did the MZ season harvest. many of the deer killed during the 2 day are not killed because of the 2 day but because they can wait until then to kill a deer. Last year there were around 17,000 deer taken during the 2 day, I believe that if you eliminate the 2 day you realize a net of maybe 7,000-8,000 harvest reduction. That is nothing more than a feel good moment like raising the tax rate on the top 2%, it accomplishes little. During our heyday of deer hunting, when the 2 day gun was introduced for the first time and the record 2009 seasons the gun harvest

You are also correct that the 2 day gun was not always here. it was started in 2006, If you do a comparison of harvest from 2002 until now there has been little growth in all gun seasons combined. The exception would be the introduction of youth season in 2003 that now takes around 9,000 deer per year. The big increase comes from extra tags and $15 tags statewide in 2007 that significantly increased the archery harvest

In 2002, with no youth season and no Nasa Plumbrook hunts the total gun harvest all in was 155,000, the archery harvest 48,841. In 2006 the gun harvest total including the 2 day plus the youth and Nasa hunts, all in was 169,000 deer, the archery harvest was 67,910 deer. In 2009, the last high harvest year for Ohio before the decline showed in the kill numbers, the gun seasons all in was 169,482, this was the highest harvest since 2006 and showed a net growth of 486 deer. In 2009 the archery harvest was 91,546, another year of record harvest, a net increase of 23,634 over the 2006 harvest. In you use 2006 as the baseline and compare harvest growth through 2009 season the gun seasons experienced a net decrease of deer harvested of 17,142 deer over those 3 years against average. The same comparison shows a deer harvest increase in the archery seasons of 52,305 deer over the same 3 years

The big increase in tags and the $15 tags valid statewide came into play in 2007 for the archery season. The harvest numbers grew right along with the tag and harvest limits for archery.

If you look at tag sales data and compare to harvest numbers it is interesting. The tag to harvest success rate stays very flat over all of these years. It is the chicken and egg question. Do the archery hunters buy the extra tags prior to starting the season because they know that they plan on harvesting a certain number or do they buy more tags as they fill the ones they have? I would guess the later considering how much concern there was on this site to fill the reduced price tags prior to them expiring. So much expressed concern on here about reducing the harvest and yet a larger concern of a need to go and kill a deer the last weekend before gun season or waste $15.

The problem is harvest, not method, not opportunity, it is the limit and tags availability. Eliminating hunter opportunity, especially two weekend days, does not address the problem in my opinion. If the intent is to cut back on the harvest increase that we have experienced over the past 6 + years it is very clear where the increase has occurred. It is from the increased tag and bag limit, most of which has occurred outside of any of the gun harvest. The number show clearly, in my opinion, that reducing the 2 day is little more than an emotional feel good solution that does little to correct anything.

The ODNR was able to increase harvest substantially in archery through increases in tag availability and reduced cost. Doesn't it make sense that you can reduce harvest the same way without eliminating any hunting opportunity?
 
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Lundy

Member
1,312
141
You couldn't be more wrong. It has nothing to do with an animosity towards guns. Too bad you didn't have this attitude when the dnr decided to reduce the population. A shame you didn't scream about a loss of hunter opportunity and hunters rights when they decided to cut our population to the bone in most areas. Amazing how you can stand by and not care that they removed a massive chunk of our deer population but scream at hunters for wanting to fix it. Amazing how You can point a finger at us and scream we're little more than bigoted antis who are against hunters when we are the ones trying to stop the dnr from destroying our deer population. Imagine if you viewed the dnr reducing the population with the same attitude as you do people wanting to reduce gun season to help rebuild it. What the dnr has done to our deer population is FAR more damaging to hunting and hunters than removing a couple days of season. Yet somehow we are the ones who are against hunters.

You don't know me or my history on issues relating to the ODNR. You seem to always take the emotional reaction. You attack the opinion holder first the opinion second. Your emotional responses don't make you or your opinion any more right or wrong than my opinion or me.
 
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hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
40,469
288
Ohio
Sadly, I just found myself get sidetracked from reading this with the Today Show. Not real entertaining.

Bottom line: ODNR is going to do what they want. We have little say if any. Now we are arguing amongst ourselves about something out of our control. This is just what the antis love.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
You don't know me or my history on issues relating to the ODNR. You seem to always take the emotional reaction. You attack the opinion holder first the opinion second. Your emotional responses don't make you or your opinion any more right or wrong than my opinion or me.

I do not know your history with the DNR. However I find it funny you cry foul when someone wants to remove two days of gun to increase the population and you basically call them a bigoted anti gun hunter, but yet you supported the DNR in reducing our herd. I ask you, which is a bigger destroyer of opportunity for ohios hunters? Removing two days of gun, or removing 50% of the deer in the state? Is the enemy the people trying to increase the population and are willing to sacrifice two days of gun season and tags, or the people who have decimated the population by adding tags and seasons?

As for attacking the opinion holder. I have already shown you why eliminating the $15 dollar tags isn't going to work as a sole solution. Yet you continue to hold on to it like that's all that needs to be done. Your stance is obviously slanted for no other reason than you love to gun hunt. You keep saying that if the DNR removes the bonus gun then people will just kill them during the other 11 days of gun season.. Then you blame the rise in Archery kills.. Yet you don't apply the same logic to archery that you do for gun. This shows your obvious slant.. Remove the month of October Lundy, why would your theory for gun not hold the same as for bow.. If we apply your excuse for not removing gun and remove 30 days from archery then people will just shoot them the other 90 days of archery. I think that is far more likely than with gun. You yourself have conveniently forgotten that those killing 4-6 deer is a minute amount. Eliminating the bonus tags and taking it back to a 3 deer limit might save 6-8000 deer. and those deer are likely in areas where the population is booming like urban areas. So it would do you minimal good in huntable areas to take the tags to 3.. It would have to be much lower like 1-2..

If you want to decrease kills you have to limit BOTH tags and opportunity. period. It does you no good to only remove half of the problem. Opertunity directly correlates to kills.. If that wasn't a true statement then we could replace Archery season with rifle season and nothing would change. That however is not a reality. opportunity = kills therefor opportunity has to be reduced to reverse the trend. That's a harsh reality and it sucks. But truth is we shouldn't be in this situation.. If you want someone to blame then the real enemy of the hunter right now is headquartered in Columbus and they're pandering to an insurance company.. Personally I am willing to see a 2 tag limit, start season on Oct 15, and eliminate bonus gun. Do that for a year or two and go from there..
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
49,529
288
Appalachia
Joe hit the nail on the head with his suggestions at the end of his previous post. I am all for an October 15th start, no bonus gun, and a reduction in tags. That would be a great start to rebounding the population.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
Sadly, I just found myself get sidetracked from reading this with the Today Show. Not real entertaining.

Bottom line: ODNR is going to do what they want. We have little say if any. Now we are arguing amongst ourselves about something out of our control. This is just what the antis love.

I can see why you would think that. They will never admit what persuaded them to change their mind or plans. But doing nothing ensures they can do what they want unchallenged. Doing nothing accomplishes nothing. Something, always leads to something, even if your opponent will never admit it. :)

As for the antis. Piss on em. Our arguing amongst ourselves doesn't give them any power.
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
40,469
288
Ohio
I can see why you would think that. They will never admit what persuaded them to change their mind or plans. But doing nothing ensures they can do what they want unchallenged. Doing nothing accomplishes nothing. Something, always leads to something, even if your opponent will never admit it. :)

As for the antis. Piss on em. Our arguing amongst ourselves doesn't give them any power.

True and I am concerned for the future hunting populations. Therefore while I feel we have little impact on their end decisions, it is possible to at least be heard if you buzz around their ear enough. Might help influence their thoughts a bit.
 

RedCloud

Super Moderator
Super Mod
17,438
207
North Central Ohio
Start Oct. 15th take the bonus gun out and go back to a single either sex tag ($24) and one $15 doe tag. Close bow 2nd week in Jan. and finish the season with the 4 day muzzy season.

For all I care you could close bow out on Dec. 30th and start the 4 day of muzzy on Dec. 31st. to end the deer season. For me right now on the properties I hunt I usually hang my bow up just when Gun season starts and very seldom do I even bother to go out after gun season. If I do go I see NOTHING so why go. My deer are driven from the property and don't return until the end of Jan. begining of Feb. to the food in front of my cams that are set for survival inventory.

I wouldn't even mind to see it go back to the 1 either sex tag like it was when I first started deer hunting.

I have hunted deer for over 20 years in one form or another. Started off with gun season only and then as I got older moved to adding bow season. For my own reason I choose not to gun hunt anymore and I don't care that others still want to gun hunt...go ahead and tag out however you wish. Doesn't matter to me. I don't know how long anybody else here has hunted an specially around my area but I can tell you that in this area I am seeing the same amount of deer I did back in the early 90's. I don't ever expect my area to be Athens of the early to mid 90's but something has to give. I want to see deer no matter if they are in range or not. Don't even get me started on turkey numbers up here lol. You guys that see more then 3 deer or turkey in a day, count your lucky stars because it is very rare up here around my area. Always has been and if ODNR has their way it will always be that way.

Sorry for the rammbling. Just gets under my skin sometimes. I need to kill something or at least get out and about.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,263
261
Its official - we are out of deer. I saw on another forum where Mtneer saw no deer. He is suddenly concerned. If you can't find 'em in the grub, they don't exist!