This past Sunday I attended church for the first time in 20 years for something other than a wedding or funeral. I have always had a belief in God but always kinda got leery of people who really pushed the Bible as the be all end all. I always felt even at a young age the book was a great guide to living with lessons for every situation that life could throw at you. I guess one thing that bothers me is a few of our close friends are every Sunday church goers but are some of the most hypocritical, judgmental people I know. I guess I just feel better after going but not sure if the whole part of it is something I feel a part of. Kinda hard to explain. But with a young son now I dont feel im the right guy to explain God to him and feel better if he goes with us and hears it himself and experiences it himself. But I dont want him to be as judgemental and hypocritical as what I view alot of these people. Just courious if anyone really understands where I'm coming from?
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- Thread starter Redhunter1012
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I do 100%.
My grandfather was a Baptist preacher who used to travel the countryside of rural WV by horse in the 40'-50's to spread the word. As time passed, he grew to have his own disdain for organized religion for various reasons and eventually stopped preaching in the church. Growing up we never went to church, but would attend "meetings" where the family would gather for a large meal and my grandfather/uncle would essentially conduct church. That all stopped when I was 10 or 11 and I have rarely attended church since then.
My wife is Catholic and comes from a family that believes you go to church every chance you have. Over the years of being with me, she has become a holiday Catholic as I can't stand going to Catholic church and she does not pressure me to do so. Occasionally we attend "my church" which is a local Baptist church where the preacher is a guy my dad grew up with and who used to attend church under my grandfather. If I am going to go to church, this is where I like to go.
My issue lies in the both the Bible and organized religion. The Bible is flawed and I have no doubts about that, so I refuse to take it as an absolute. Organized religion has murdered, stolen, manipulated and judged all in the name of the Lord for thousands of years. Today, organized religion harbors some of the most judgmental people on the face of this earth. It is for this reason that I do not want to be a regular part of any church or segment of organized religion.
Now with our young one here, my wife wants to start attending church again and I do not. She also wants to get our daughter baptized in her church, which I agreed to do. But I am not baptized and she wants me to get baptized. Right now, I have no real desire to do that. I am neither religious, nor a man of God. What I am is spiritual. I do not deny that there is a higher power, but what roll does that power really have in my day to day, minute to minute, second to second existence? My thoughts and beliefs simply do not jive well with "church" and the Bible, so it is hard for me to merge the two. When it comes to my daughter, I want her to think for herself and not just be a blind follower. So many people who are believers, are truly blind because they have never given their beliefs any thought. Catholics are the perfect example of that IMO as Catholic mass is simply a ritual. I look around every time I am in her church and wonder how many blind faith followers are there, and I imagine the number is rather large.
I think you need to do what is right for your son whether it is what you truly believe or not. With my daughter, I will let her be a blind follower for a while. However when I feel she has reached a point in her life where she can think for herself in regards to this issue, I will challenge her to take a deep look at her beliefs and faith to make sure it is truly what she believes.
Good luck man. Nothing easy about this subject.
My grandfather was a Baptist preacher who used to travel the countryside of rural WV by horse in the 40'-50's to spread the word. As time passed, he grew to have his own disdain for organized religion for various reasons and eventually stopped preaching in the church. Growing up we never went to church, but would attend "meetings" where the family would gather for a large meal and my grandfather/uncle would essentially conduct church. That all stopped when I was 10 or 11 and I have rarely attended church since then.
My wife is Catholic and comes from a family that believes you go to church every chance you have. Over the years of being with me, she has become a holiday Catholic as I can't stand going to Catholic church and she does not pressure me to do so. Occasionally we attend "my church" which is a local Baptist church where the preacher is a guy my dad grew up with and who used to attend church under my grandfather. If I am going to go to church, this is where I like to go.
My issue lies in the both the Bible and organized religion. The Bible is flawed and I have no doubts about that, so I refuse to take it as an absolute. Organized religion has murdered, stolen, manipulated and judged all in the name of the Lord for thousands of years. Today, organized religion harbors some of the most judgmental people on the face of this earth. It is for this reason that I do not want to be a regular part of any church or segment of organized religion.
Now with our young one here, my wife wants to start attending church again and I do not. She also wants to get our daughter baptized in her church, which I agreed to do. But I am not baptized and she wants me to get baptized. Right now, I have no real desire to do that. I am neither religious, nor a man of God. What I am is spiritual. I do not deny that there is a higher power, but what roll does that power really have in my day to day, minute to minute, second to second existence? My thoughts and beliefs simply do not jive well with "church" and the Bible, so it is hard for me to merge the two. When it comes to my daughter, I want her to think for herself and not just be a blind follower. So many people who are believers, are truly blind because they have never given their beliefs any thought. Catholics are the perfect example of that IMO as Catholic mass is simply a ritual. I look around every time I am in her church and wonder how many blind faith followers are there, and I imagine the number is rather large.
I think you need to do what is right for your son whether it is what you truly believe or not. With my daughter, I will let her be a blind follower for a while. However when I feel she has reached a point in her life where she can think for herself in regards to this issue, I will challenge her to take a deep look at her beliefs and faith to make sure it is truly what she believes.
Good luck man. Nothing easy about this subject.
rgecko23
*Supporting Member*
This is def a touchy subject. I used to think that I dont need to go to church, I have my own personal realtionship with God, and that church isnt for me. With the constant badgering for money, money for this, money for that. I despised it. then I came to know what I was missing, and even now, I dont get to go as much as I want, which is partly my fault. The biggest thing for me was to find somehwere that relates to me. That I can walk out of there feeling that I learned something, and want to be a part of. You should enjoy going, not be a pain in the ass. Its important IMO, you cannt simply learn all that you need to learn by reading, it needs to be taught.
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I completely understand and am with you 100%.. I was raised Southern baptist, attended a private christian school, even won first place at state competition among christian schools for a sermon I wrote and Preached. That was 16 years ago now. Like you I haven't darkened the steps of a church outside weddings and funerals in over 14 years. I still have a belief in God, believe the bible, and all that jazz. I agree with the religion, I hate the people. Modern "organized religion" as I call it is 99% of the time IMO a sham. Some of the most hypocritical, judgmental, vain, fake people I have met firmly believe they are "Christians". I think many of the pastors today are charlatans.. And most of their congregation wouldn't understand the basics and founding principals of Christianity if Jesus himself told them.
I pass by a church often driving home.. It's a big, popular church.. And when people tell you they go there they almost have a air of snobbishness in their voice. "Well, I go to YYY church".. Like it's a status symbol or something.. It's the church where all the doctors, lawyers, and recognizable names in the town go. Naturally others attend there too for the simple reason that it's the posh thing to do.. And they have no qualms about telling you what church they go to, almost as if they're bragging.. I drive by this church at night and they have a monstrosity of a building. Spotlight's shining all night highlight the architectural craftsmanship of the building. The parking lot out front has the lights on constantly. You can tell they are proud of the place. But here is where I have a problem.. It's vanity. The whole thing is Vanity. What would Jesus say if he saw such a place crafted in his name... I would assume the first question he would ask is why they're spending money that was given in his name to shine a spotlight on a building. Why isn't that money being used to feed, clothe, and witness to the lost and less fortunate. I can tell you what Jesus would think about such a vain waste. He has already told us.
Show up dirty, stinky, and hungry at that church, don't make a scene, just quietly slip in and sit in the back.. Observe the looks, glances, and targeted disdain. Wickedness in the name of the lord.. It is these people who will suffer worse after their judgement than all others.
Tithing.. I HATE how modern organized religion touts tithing. If you need money for operations then say so.. Don't attach some supreme power to it.. If you want to see how much a church loves God and how Spiritual they are.. Go to their church for a few months.. Don't put a dime in the plate. If you can go three months without being pulled to the side and passively lectured on tithing, you've found something rare. Usually it'll happen right after a sermon on tithing. I'm not going to go into a diatribe of why tithing is a scam. Here is a lengthy, scripture filled, step by step explanation of the history of tithing. http://www.letusreason.org/doct54.htm
All is all I believe that modern organized religion is nowhere near what God had planned. It's nowhere near the teachings of Jesus..
As for me. I don't need them. Most are charlatans and wolves in sheep's clothing. I will live be a good person, help those in need where I can, and lay my head down at night without regrets. On my judgement day I think God will agree.
I pass by a church often driving home.. It's a big, popular church.. And when people tell you they go there they almost have a air of snobbishness in their voice. "Well, I go to YYY church".. Like it's a status symbol or something.. It's the church where all the doctors, lawyers, and recognizable names in the town go. Naturally others attend there too for the simple reason that it's the posh thing to do.. And they have no qualms about telling you what church they go to, almost as if they're bragging.. I drive by this church at night and they have a monstrosity of a building. Spotlight's shining all night highlight the architectural craftsmanship of the building. The parking lot out front has the lights on constantly. You can tell they are proud of the place. But here is where I have a problem.. It's vanity. The whole thing is Vanity. What would Jesus say if he saw such a place crafted in his name... I would assume the first question he would ask is why they're spending money that was given in his name to shine a spotlight on a building. Why isn't that money being used to feed, clothe, and witness to the lost and less fortunate. I can tell you what Jesus would think about such a vain waste. He has already told us.
Show up dirty, stinky, and hungry at that church, don't make a scene, just quietly slip in and sit in the back.. Observe the looks, glances, and targeted disdain. Wickedness in the name of the lord.. It is these people who will suffer worse after their judgement than all others.
Tithing.. I HATE how modern organized religion touts tithing. If you need money for operations then say so.. Don't attach some supreme power to it.. If you want to see how much a church loves God and how Spiritual they are.. Go to their church for a few months.. Don't put a dime in the plate. If you can go three months without being pulled to the side and passively lectured on tithing, you've found something rare. Usually it'll happen right after a sermon on tithing. I'm not going to go into a diatribe of why tithing is a scam. Here is a lengthy, scripture filled, step by step explanation of the history of tithing. http://www.letusreason.org/doct54.htm
All is all I believe that modern organized religion is nowhere near what God had planned. It's nowhere near the teachings of Jesus..
As for me. I don't need them. Most are charlatans and wolves in sheep's clothing. I will live be a good person, help those in need where I can, and lay my head down at night without regrets. On my judgement day I think God will agree.
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Fullbore
Senior Member
I understand your feelings very much so. I have done the church, religion thing and I still go almost every Sunday. However, I left the United Methodist Church and now I go to a non-denominational church.
The most important thing, that all of us should be concerned about, is our own relationship with God. Not Turing another religion down or another human being down. Above all, LOVE thy neighbor, as thine self.
If you really live by that one Commandment, just think how better off this world would be.
Not to get off track, but of the three gifts that the Lord gave us, faith, hope and love. Love is our most important. As you can see on the news around the world, we could sure use some!
I hope this helps you, and God Bless!
The most important thing, that all of us should be concerned about, is our own relationship with God. Not Turing another religion down or another human being down. Above all, LOVE thy neighbor, as thine self.
If you really live by that one Commandment, just think how better off this world would be.
Not to get off track, but of the three gifts that the Lord gave us, faith, hope and love. Love is our most important. As you can see on the news around the world, we could sure use some!
I hope this helps you, and God Bless!
Lots of help from all you guys, thanks. It seems most of you guys are right on line with me. I will continue to go when I dont have hunting or fishing expeditions to do. It is right across the street from me so it literally is only an hour of my time to give my son something I think he should have. I guess it will be a few years before I have to maybe explain some of my feelings to him
Ohiosam
*Supporting Member*
What I'm hearing is "The problem with church is the people." Well of course people are the problem because people are imperfect. Christians and non-Christians alike are sinners. Best you can do is find a congregation of people you can relate too, use decernment about was is taught, and read the Bible and pray to increase your own knowledge.
I spent years on end in church, mostly Baptist. As a teenager, I participated in everything and even preached a couple of sermons on our annual "youth" Sundays.
As a young adult, I taught Sunday School, and a Children's Church. I did love being in charge of the Children's church as the majority of the kids were poor and had nothing. I used to take one child a week and go spend time with them at their house, either just playing games or helping them with homework, or doing fun crafts.
I had my own kids in church every time the door was open. Twice on Sundays, every Wednesday night and any and all other special times there was something going on.
I was married 14 years and we moved a lot during that time, so I also changed churches a lot. My ex-husband was very abusive but I stayed with him all that time because I didn't believe in divorce. The Bible teaches against it. I know that at least 4 pastors were aware of it.
One pastor in particular spoke with my husband and he admitted to beating me and wanted to change, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, I got to the point where I just couldn't do the abuse anymore and wanted out and of course, spoke to my pastor about it. I was told that I shouldn't divorce as it was wrong, but that I could live separately from him.
I went through with the divorce which was long and nasty and I had to use a CPO for protection to get out of my nightmare.
I went back and spoke to the one pastor to ask if he would testify for me about the beatings and was told no.
He said he didn't believe in divorce and since my ex had never committed adultery, not to call him as a witness as he would not support my decision and would not help me because it was wrong.
I called him as a witness anyway thinking that a christian wouldn't lie under oath. I was wrong. That man, under oath, said that he couldn't recall if we had ever had marital problems or not.
I haven't been to church since.
I do miss church. I miss hearing a good sermon and the music. And I do believe in the Bible.
If I could be a fly on the wall, I'd love to go back. But to go back and deal with fake people, no thanks.
As a young adult, I taught Sunday School, and a Children's Church. I did love being in charge of the Children's church as the majority of the kids were poor and had nothing. I used to take one child a week and go spend time with them at their house, either just playing games or helping them with homework, or doing fun crafts.
I had my own kids in church every time the door was open. Twice on Sundays, every Wednesday night and any and all other special times there was something going on.
I was married 14 years and we moved a lot during that time, so I also changed churches a lot. My ex-husband was very abusive but I stayed with him all that time because I didn't believe in divorce. The Bible teaches against it. I know that at least 4 pastors were aware of it.
One pastor in particular spoke with my husband and he admitted to beating me and wanted to change, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, I got to the point where I just couldn't do the abuse anymore and wanted out and of course, spoke to my pastor about it. I was told that I shouldn't divorce as it was wrong, but that I could live separately from him.
I went through with the divorce which was long and nasty and I had to use a CPO for protection to get out of my nightmare.
I went back and spoke to the one pastor to ask if he would testify for me about the beatings and was told no.
He said he didn't believe in divorce and since my ex had never committed adultery, not to call him as a witness as he would not support my decision and would not help me because it was wrong.
I called him as a witness anyway thinking that a christian wouldn't lie under oath. I was wrong. That man, under oath, said that he couldn't recall if we had ever had marital problems or not.
I haven't been to church since.
I do miss church. I miss hearing a good sermon and the music. And I do believe in the Bible.
If I could be a fly on the wall, I'd love to go back. But to go back and deal with fake people, no thanks.
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Yeah. But it seems like those in church are more imperfect than others. And worse yet. They should know better. The bible says we should not forsake the congregation of the righteous. It also says in Romans to take note of those who create division contrary to that of their teachings, and avoid them for they will not inherit the kingdom of God. The problem is "the congregation of the righteous", is far and few between in modern churches. They're more the latter.
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Buckmaster
Senior Member
Tough topic. I was born and raised Catholic. I was baptized and went to church every Sunday until I was about 16. A Sunday job relieved me from my church attendance. I opted out of Confirmation and pretty much left the church when I was 18. Do I believe in God? Yes, I do. I think that's all that matters. Do I teach his teachings. Yes, I do if applicable.
Upon age 30 I met my wife, she's Methodist. She attends church every Sunday with our children. She volunteers often for church extras, choir, etc. and last year we contributed over $4K to the church. My kids often question why Daddy doesn't go to church. I tell them that Daddy grew up at Church. I don't need to church to live a wholesome meaningful life. God is always with me and I believe. I don't require a roof over my head to communicate with God and follow his rules. When I make mistakes I ask for forgiveness and repent. I know where the church is if I need it.
This poster has deeper meaning to me then what I currently find at Church.
Upon age 30 I met my wife, she's Methodist. She attends church every Sunday with our children. She volunteers often for church extras, choir, etc. and last year we contributed over $4K to the church. My kids often question why Daddy doesn't go to church. I tell them that Daddy grew up at Church. I don't need to church to live a wholesome meaningful life. God is always with me and I believe. I don't require a roof over my head to communicate with God and follow his rules. When I make mistakes I ask for forgiveness and repent. I know where the church is if I need it.
This poster has deeper meaning to me then what I currently find at Church.
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Ohiosam
*Supporting Member*
Quantifying imperfection is a human tendency. My understanding of scripture is all sin is equal.
When John wrote Revelation he named Congregations and the error of their ways. He told them to change, he didn't tell people not to attend.
I was that guy that had it all figured out and thought I was on the path. I could worship the Lord and walk the path with out the church....I was right and wrong. I did it but not successfully or completely fulfilled until I found a church that fit.
Without fellowship and being able to share your struggles in life with fellow believers it is hard to have that personal relationship with God. There are many styles of churches for good reason....find one that fits. IMHO, the Church is just a vessel for strengthening your personal relationship with the Lord and to be with like minded folk. You have to choose which vessel works for you as there are all kinds. From yacht to cruise ship to a jon boat there is something that fits. YOU just have to drop the man feelings of being able to take care of everything and except. Took me a long time to get there and I am still a prodder, take care of it myself kinda guy that has to fight it.
Every Baptist church I have attended has given off a vibe I just didn't like. Purple suits, big hair and gold. Just kinda gaudy. They push tithing like crazy also which is a put off for most men. Which while important is not the point of focus. Baptist fits my in-laws perfect though and I am glad. They have a place they are comfortable.
I wear my hunting gear to church on Sunday mornings I hunt. We are pretty relaxed for being a middle sized church.
Without fellowship and being able to share your struggles in life with fellow believers it is hard to have that personal relationship with God. There are many styles of churches for good reason....find one that fits. IMHO, the Church is just a vessel for strengthening your personal relationship with the Lord and to be with like minded folk. You have to choose which vessel works for you as there are all kinds. From yacht to cruise ship to a jon boat there is something that fits. YOU just have to drop the man feelings of being able to take care of everything and except. Took me a long time to get there and I am still a prodder, take care of it myself kinda guy that has to fight it.
Every Baptist church I have attended has given off a vibe I just didn't like. Purple suits, big hair and gold. Just kinda gaudy. They push tithing like crazy also which is a put off for most men. Which while important is not the point of focus. Baptist fits my in-laws perfect though and I am glad. They have a place they are comfortable.
I wear my hunting gear to church on Sunday mornings I hunt. We are pretty relaxed for being a middle sized church.
Buckmaster
Senior Member
Well spoken Charles, Your words echo my wife's words and discontent (being in non attendance) with me as well. I get it, Worshipping as a group and bringing the groups needs all into the fold all while supporting one another. My wife has met some higher quality people at church. Many of her better students at her school come from families that have two parents still married and attend church regularly. There is something to be said about that.
I haven't been to a church that does say that. They speak of having a personal relationship with God and becoming a disciple. The goal is to become more Christ like and we are all going to fall well short...that is where having fellowship helps the most. With out a church that is something hard to accomplish for all but a VERY few of us. The Church is just walls and a convenient, supportive meeting place.
Thing is, I have seen and heard that mentality a good bit in my life. Even at the church I like to attend, there are a few people that seem to have that mentality about me when I show up 3-4 times a year. IMO, church gives shallow people a soap box to stand on and it happens all TOO often...
Ohiosam
*Supporting Member*
Absolutely not! You only get the heaven through grace. However blaming others for not attending church seems a liittle disingenuous to me.
Then I guess you have not walked in my shoes...
I'm not blaming my lack of attendance in church solely on other people either. My experience with the self-righteous church-goer is just a part of why I don't make church a staple in my life. I also do not feel the need to attend church is order to satisfy my spiritual peace of mind.
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