ODNR Deer Harvest comparison
- Thread starter LonewolfNopack
- Start date
I would agree about open houses. I attended one. . . once. I received the same answers as the lines of people waiting to ask the same questions. They were like robots spitting out the same BS excuses and telling us not to expect anything different. Why waste my time if the ODNR reps are there to talk rather than listen?
In regards to this weekend? Wish I could be there to watch. Probably best I am not able to attend. I agree this is not a personal attack on Tonk. It is simply his position which takes the heat. Swap him out with someone else, and it could be the same or it could be worse. Without the higher ups having the willingness to listen to the hunters, we are wasting our breath. All we can do is spread the word and be good stewards of the land in our immediate areas. We cannot control those cheating the system. We cannot control the guy not checking in deer or illegally harvesting. We cannot control the guy filling all his tags, and his wife's tags, and his kids' tags. Unfortunately, neither can the one WO in my county. Good guy, just not enough of him to go around. Not sure about other counties, but one WO in our county is spread pretty thin and we are not even a heavy deer density county. I will shoot what we can eat. I will tag what I shoot. Until there is an organization representing my interests, I will go about my business and spread the message of the ODNR decimating our deer herd to everyone I hear complaining of not seeing deer. I will tell them to call or email and complain. Not much more I can do.
In regards to this weekend? Wish I could be there to watch. Probably best I am not able to attend. I agree this is not a personal attack on Tonk. It is simply his position which takes the heat. Swap him out with someone else, and it could be the same or it could be worse. Without the higher ups having the willingness to listen to the hunters, we are wasting our breath. All we can do is spread the word and be good stewards of the land in our immediate areas. We cannot control those cheating the system. We cannot control the guy not checking in deer or illegally harvesting. We cannot control the guy filling all his tags, and his wife's tags, and his kids' tags. Unfortunately, neither can the one WO in my county. Good guy, just not enough of him to go around. Not sure about other counties, but one WO in our county is spread pretty thin and we are not even a heavy deer density county. I will shoot what we can eat. I will tag what I shoot. Until there is an organization representing my interests, I will go about my business and spread the message of the ODNR decimating our deer herd to everyone I hear complaining of not seeing deer. I will tell them to call or email and complain. Not much more I can do.
rgecko23
*Supporting Member*
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I've never came close to saying it better than you just put it Phil. And I whole heartedly agree with this statement.
"I agree this is not a personal attack on Tonk. It is simply his position which takes the heat. Swap him out with someone else, and it could be the same or it could be worse."
I feel the exact same way. Perhaps mrex sees it differently because they're friends. I'm sure Tonk is a good guy and a great friend. However my association with him is not friendship. To me he's the head biologist in charge of Ohio's deer program, and he's screwed the pooch. I don't owe him a thing, however his position dictates he owes fairness and consideration in regards to the deer population to all of us hunters as well as others. HE is our only advocate in the DNR. The person who should stick up for us hunters while considering the opinion of special interest. It's his job. One I feel he's failed in regards to hunters. We've been disregarded to accomplish the goals of special interest. I've never been one to shy away from giving someone hell if I believe they warrant it.
rgecko23
*Supporting Member*
I think Rex is taking it personally cause he's buddies with him. Don't let him pull you into that garbage. Your better than that.
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The irony is once upon a time back around 1995 mrex went after Tonk over this same subject I am today. I never take disagreements personally though. At the end of the day there's nothing I can do to change what's happening. That doesn't mean I'm going to keep quiet about whose responsible though. I'm the type of person who can have a seething debate with a person, then sit around the fire later telling hunting stories and laughing like it's all forgotten. That's just me though.
Fullbore
Senior Member
This would be great, if Tonk could make this trip. I am looking forward to this trip myself.
750,000 deer in this State, for 4 or so years running is ridiculous! Just my 2 cents.
750,000 deer in this State, for 4 or so years running is ridiculous! Just my 2 cents.
Correct. And I thought I had solved the problem last year when I brought him to camp. My hope was that you folks would see Mike Tonkovich in a different light and walk away with better understanding of the difficult job he has.
Joe is right in that I used to be an outspoken critic of the DOW...and I still am. I think this early MZ season is a terrible idea. Hell, I've been in the bullseye of DOW law enforcement for 20 years. However, The rhetoric on this forum has gone way beyond just being critical of the division and their policies. My good friend has been accused of being dishonest and a liar, among other things, to many times to count and I've had enough of it.
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By being a liar, do you mean giving the same estimate over a course of years that the herd clearly declined? I know, the estimate is just a number, a number assigned to show movement in the herd trends, vs an actual number of living animals as that is an impossible task. Just to make things clear, in my area, we have WAY FEWER deer than we had in 1995. As you recall, I've pointed that out to you before, and to Tonk. Both of you said I was incorrect, so I looked up the numbers. Yep, I'm right. So I'm pretty happy to have a reduction in tags, finally, in Fayette. Incidentally, Athens Co killed essentially the same number of deer in 2012 as in 1995, with more opportunity, but still, the numbers are very close. If I lived in your neck of the woods, I would feel all is well. Try living and hunting in an area that has been overharvested...you may not view your friend as the patron saint of deer. Having said that, with time, I think our area will recover, even with predation that is a relatively new factor that isn't factored into the equation per your friend. He is a nice enough fella, but who is to get the blame? Isn't it the same guy that gets the glory when all is well?
As I said, I'm looking forward to the conversation this weekend.
As I said, I'm looking forward to the conversation this weekend.
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Perhaps if he didn't want to be called dishonest and a liar he should publish on the DNR site his true intentions for our deer herd. Besides "it needs lowered". t's very hard to call someone dishonest when they're completely transparent and upfront.
Post up the numbers for what he wants the county populations to be, what they were in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 and exactly the logic he used to come to those numbers. Post the formula and supporting data that explain how he figures out a county population and desired target. This shouldn't be hard data to find. He should already have it right? Right?
Instead what we've gotten is. Oh we use harvest numbers and dva numbers and farmer complaint numbers. The problem with that is all of those numbers have shown a drastic decline in the past 10 years especially the last 5. So how can they be used to justify the addition addition of seasons, tags. Then when the numbers drop the excuse is Acorns, weather, hunters fault, etc. Those are all excuses to cover up something else.
So I'll say again. It's very hard to call a person a liar when everything is out in the open. Post it. The truth is they never will. They don't want hunters to know just how much they plan to reduce the population. I have never once seen a target population number posted. And that mike. Is by definition dishonest. Friend of not.
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At an OBA function, DOW representatives said they wanted to see the herd at 450k. That would be GREAT if it were the same 450k we had in 95. Unfortunately, the estimated herd jumped UP dramatically over a couple of years for no apparent reason...it's not apparent to me at least, as I didn't start seeing more and more deer. They must have been breeding more in other parts of the state.
If it's just a clear answer you want, Joe, you should be able to get it this weekend. That is why he is coming. I won't be bothering with fish thawing chores this year, that sort of thing leads Mike to post on OS about pampered chef parties. I will not, however, take part in a "gang tackle" situation either. I want to know some things, I'll ask them.
If it's just a clear answer you want, Joe, you should be able to get it this weekend. That is why he is coming. I won't be bothering with fish thawing chores this year, that sort of thing leads Mike to post on OS about pampered chef parties. I will not, however, take part in a "gang tackle" situation either. I want to know some things, I'll ask them.
I will not be there. Outside of frustration when hunting and not seeing deer, I have no qualms with the guy.
MRex- Is there another person, position, or office a hunter can contact with issues and complaints? I realize our local offices can be contacted and our local WO is aware of my feelings. I realize there are District open houses. I have attended and the people working were more interested in telling the attendees their pre-programmed answers than listening to anyone. It was very clearly setup to push propaganda vs listen to thoughts, concerns, suggestions, or complaints. That said, once these resources have been exhausted with no success is there another source or body to go to? Is there an office, official, department, or other whose job it is to answer for the frustrations? This isn't a bash. This isn't sarcasm. This is a truly sincere question. I realize the guy is your friend and it is honorable of you to stand up for him. I am simply afraid he is the guy standing there when the rubber meets the road. Unless you know of another avenue we can direct our questions?
MRex- Is there another person, position, or office a hunter can contact with issues and complaints? I realize our local offices can be contacted and our local WO is aware of my feelings. I realize there are District open houses. I have attended and the people working were more interested in telling the attendees their pre-programmed answers than listening to anyone. It was very clearly setup to push propaganda vs listen to thoughts, concerns, suggestions, or complaints. That said, once these resources have been exhausted with no success is there another source or body to go to? Is there an office, official, department, or other whose job it is to answer for the frustrations? This isn't a bash. This isn't sarcasm. This is a truly sincere question. I realize the guy is your friend and it is honorable of you to stand up for him. I am simply afraid he is the guy standing there when the rubber meets the road. Unless you know of another avenue we can direct our questions?
Joe pretty well summed up my feelings. Mike Tonkavich the man seems like a nice guy. However Mike Tonkavich the Head Biologist for the Ohio DNR has been the mouthpiece for lies, half truths, and omissions of truth. I feel he sold out to the machine and deserves most the criticism he gets here and elsewhere.
Do you actually think your good friend is going to tell you that the politicians have him in their pocket? No, if he ran his mouth like that he wouldn't have a job. Do you think he's going to tell you about all the pressure he is under from them, the insurance companies, and the farmers? No, he wants his job. He is apparently quick to come up with reasons why people are not seeing deer, weather, low mast, hunters fault, etc. Even with him being your close friend you will never know the full story because he wants his job. I'm sure he's a nice dude but he let this go a little TOO far. If he was a man of moral character he would of resigned his position and shed light on this troubling matter when it began. And I have every right TOO criticize Tonk, I pay his salary, and I have rights.
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Bigslam,
You are spot on with comment about the the DOW working for us. Hunting, fishing and trapping created their job and pays their bills. "They" often forget that. I really think someone in such a high position should be elected by sportsman.
Week two, deer kill down over 30% statewide.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=gzB1uSwf0kA=&tabid=24154
You are spot on with comment about the the DOW working for us. Hunting, fishing and trapping created their job and pays their bills. "They" often forget that. I really think someone in such a high position should be elected by sportsman.
Week two, deer kill down over 30% statewide.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=gzB1uSwf0kA=&tabid=24154
As far as Tonk or buddy Rex taking things personal. Let me tell you something about personal. My girlfriend, who I have been with for 6 years, and who has hunted with me for the past 4 years, told me she does not plan on hunting this year because the last two years have been absolutely pathetic for deer sighting. It is no fun for her to sit all day in a stand, every day, and not see anything. This is in a county that I am told has too many deer by the almighty powers that be. I tell you what, I loved sitting in the stand with her, watching her enjoy nature and ask me silly questions about the outdoors, but now it looks like this isn't going to happen anymore. I don't blame her a bit for not wanting to go. I'm an obsessed hunter and I have thought about quitting myself. That's Damn personal, and my story isn't the only one like that. In an era where we are trying to recruit women and kids to hunting, I hope this makes him proud.
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