I agree more with Jesse's comments, but I see your point. It's going to be great for "us" and great for "them".
Gun week total is down 8%
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I agree more with Jesse's comments, but I see your point. It's going to be great for "us" and great for "them".
Jack,
I think we are just killing more deer because of the increased opportunities....ie, extra gun, extended archery, extra tags, newly implemented youth season and so forth.
I don't know what your population of deer has been and is now, but I can say for Paulding county it has been slightly increasing for the last 10 years or so each year....Now that we are allowed to kill more deer as mentioned above it will look like there are a LOT more deer here than any previous years. I will be watching closely to see where we are headed to next year as far as deer zone and bag limits, along with the actual number of deer in the area.
I felt that we were just starting to get a comfortable number of deer in this county as far as carrying capacity and deer sightings go, and then the limit is bumped to 4.....it won't take long for them to disappear from this open country.
I think we are just killing more deer because of the increased opportunities....ie, extra gun, extended archery, extra tags, newly implemented youth season and so forth.
I don't know what your population of deer has been and is now, but I can say for Paulding county it has been slightly increasing for the last 10 years or so each year....Now that we are allowed to kill more deer as mentioned above it will look like there are a LOT more deer here than any previous years. I will be watching closely to see where we are headed to next year as far as deer zone and bag limits, along with the actual number of deer in the area.
I felt that we were just starting to get a comfortable number of deer in this county as far as carrying capacity and deer sightings go, and then the limit is bumped to 4.....it won't take long for them to disappear from this open country.
more antlerless tags means less does to give birth to the next generation , which means drop in deer numbers , you have less antlerless tags , you have more does giving birth the following year
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My situation is the same as Brock has seen and Sean has seen... In 2006-07 we would see 10-15 deer per sit. Sometimes all in one group.. But never less than 5-10.. No questions asked. Pick a tree. Any tree.. Any ridge, or any finger.. You would see deer and more than likely kill one if you wanted..
The 2006-2007 season went off well and the bonus gun weekend was cool.....
Scouting in late 2007 we started to find deer dead from EHD all over the place. The creek bottoms, watering holes, and pond up the road all had dead deer around them..
Archery season 2007.. There are noticeably less deer. We no longer see 10-15 deer per sit.. We might only see 2-4 per outing now.. The first ever bonus gun last season coupled with EHD really gave us a whipping.. Oh God.. Not only do we still have Bonus gun.. This year they have doubled out tags from 3 to 6.
January 2008.. Something isn't right.. We are only seeing 1-2 deer per sit.. We have started to have our first times on the stand where we're not seeing a single deer. Maybe 1 out of 4 times on stand we will get skunked. The other 3 we will see 1 or 2 deer.
Opening month 2008... We're fucked.. It's to the point now where we will see 1-2 deer only half the time on the stand. One out of two hunts will end in not seeing any deer at all...
January 2009.. They are gone.. It's not worth hunting.. More times than not you will get skunked.. I wait for a time when it snows a good couple inches in Febuary and stays on the ground.. On Day 2 with snow on the ground I walk EVERY hill and hollow on our lease. One ridge we have is over a mile long. I walk every finger off it. I walk up the hollow on both sides... I count only 28 sets of deer tracks in two day old snow. 28 deer on over 900 acres. And some of those could have been counted twice as they were on the ridge heading for the hollow.. Lets check on the neighbors property that only hunts shotgun.. Same deal. not many tracks.. It's a bright sunny day, with 2 days worth of snow.
Opening of Archery 2009... No Acorn's.. No deer.. 3 out of 4 sits will end in getting skunked.. Maybe the deer have abandoned the hills.. Drive 3 miles and talk with the farmer that is the only AG that butts up to our lease and he just so happens to be a member... Same deal. Him and his boys aren't seeing the deer.. I personally think he is lying and decide to hunt a ridge point where i can see his AG fields 400+ yards below me.. I glass and glass and glass. Nothing to write home about ones or twos here and there.... I put the first ever feeder on the property.. Mistake. 6 hunters come to camp to hunt 7 days of the rut.. 6 hunters, 7 days, hunting an average of 8 hours a day for a total of 336 hours.. Around 9 deer are killed. We are now killing 1 deer per 37 hours on the stand. or roughly 1 deer in every 4 hunts... But even when we were seeing deer like crazy years ago we only shot 1 every other hunt or so. We only had three tags and always saved a buck tag.. So we might shoot one or two does a year back then regardless of how many we saw.
This is what I have personally seen with my own two eyes.. It is undeniable.. It is real.. We do not have the deer we once did.. Talking with people all over they are seeing the same thing.. Sean place 15 miles away, same deal. People at the check stations, same deal, people at grannies restaurant in Londonderry, same deal..
Up until this year I still shot my 2 or so deer a year in VC.. Actually last year i got pissed and filed my tags during gun.. I lost my give a shit.. The DNR want's deer killed, lets kill some fuckin deer.. This year i have decided to not shoot another doe off this property.. Hence the reason I shot the buttonbuck and not one of the does he was bedded with..
I might not know what the problem is.. I can only speculate on what to blame it on.. But i can say. Ehd, Bonus gun, and Bonus tags have had something to do with it..
formerbowhunter1023
Now Posts as Jesse..
That's a broad assumption though. It happens to be such for you, but what about my uncle who has no internet and no debit or credit cards to pay for tags and licenses online. Now what? Now he has to drive twice as far to go to my house to use the internet as he would to drive to the check station, then write me a check, and use my credit card to pay for his stuff online. What about the guy that cuts up his own deer and only tags them in to buy beer and get his picture taken? You think he'll pick up the phone to call one in? I doubt it...
I get your opinion and I think you get mine. I'm done pitching mine for the time being. Not that you all are city slickers, but a lot of you have no idea what it is like to live in the sticks. Things work differently down here. From all I have heard, there are going to be all kinds of people say "fuck that" when it comes to getting on the internet or making a phone call. Especially the people that don't have internet. It might not be doom and gloom, but it will be abused and it will be abused most heavily in rural areas. The same areas where poaching and game violations are common practice, and deer numbers are down. I simply don't see how it will make things better...
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Schu72
Well-Known Member
Extrapolating? That's a good one. There seems to be a lot of "extrapolating" in this thread. lol
I'm sure the deer numbers are down on Sean's property. I'm also sure that Sean's property represents >.001 of the total land mass of Vinton County where hunters checked in almost 4000 deer last year. I have run 22 cameras all over Athens County this year and have seen a huge variation in the number of pics taken from one area to the next. I've got one camera that's sending 400 pics a day and another camera 1.5 miles down the road that sends about 400 a week...and the set ups are exactly the same.
I don't doubt that the numbers are way down in the areas some of you guys are hunting and I completely understand your frustration. I graduated summa cum laude from the Wildlife Management School of Hard Knocks and I know it isn't an exact science. I get defensive when you bash Mike Tonkovich because he's a good friend, a smart guy and I believe he has our best interest in mind...and he's not here to defend himself. In the case of Fayette County, Brock was right, (again), and Tonk openly admits it. If changes aren't made for next year, he should have his ass ripped. Managing a statewide deer herd is not an easy task...it's like a referee at a football game, no matter what call you make, half the stadium doesn't like it and thinks you favor the other team.
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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here is one on a tee for you mike...
what is the departments overall whitetail herd goal...size, density or what ever.
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So it's acceptable to you if you have to hunt 4x as hard to kill the same amount of deer you did in years past? Did you read my post after the questions above? Can you explain this?
No, it's not acceptable. But IMO, on a 980 acre lease, this type of problem is solvable. You have control over who hunts it... you can control how many does are killed... and you can control how much food and cover is provided. I don't know what's causing you to not see as many deer as you used to, Joe... it fuggin puzzles me to be perfectly honest. But I think if you guys didn't shoot a single doe... not one doe all year... the difference from one year to the next should be like night and day. I just don't understand how the state bag limits are having an effect on your 980 acre lease, when you guys aren't even killing what's allowable. 800 acres is the average home range of a mature buck... and doe home ranges are even less than that... IMO, the property you hunt is more than capable of being micromanaged by the members of the lease.
Yea, I know... Brock and Sean are seeing the same type of thing... but where are the deer going? If you're the only ones that hunt it, and you're not killing them, where are they going???
Is there any chance those deer are getting poached right out from under your nose? Are they getting shot when nobody is around? Is someone killing them off in the summer months? How much time do you spend on that lease aside of hunting season?
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Why is it so hard for you to get this buddy... "THEY" aren't "going" anywhere man.. Because "THEY" are not there in the numbers they once were.. THAT is not solvable on 950 acres.. And you are incorrect about not shooting the does.. Sean has not shot a doe off his place in 2 years.. Not a single one.. He is still in a deep deep hole with numbers compared to years gone by.. IMO from watching his cams for a couple years now, he has maybe 5 more does on cam now than 2 years ago.
The cover..
250 acres of 15 year old pines
200 acres of 3 year old natural growth clearcut
400 or so acres of 45 year old mature hardwoods
50 or so acres of 5 year old pines
All Ridges and hollows
Mast crops include Red, pin, white, and chestnut oak in abundance.
Watering holes on every ridge
Solid Population of turkeys
Grouse making a good comeback
Coyotes have been increasing in numbers.
Well then, I guess you're all pretty well screwed. If letting does walk doesn't result in more fawns, somehow, I'd say there is no hope. If that's the case, the DOW reducing bag limits won't even help you...
I guess in a few better placed words, this was what I was trying to accomplish in my previous posts. 980 acres is a lot of ground! Its safe to say there are does that never leave that property. Which is also what I find odd, that if the deer are not being shot, how can they not be increasing in numbers! Do you have a lot of dry does from year to year?
Also, along the lines of what chad just said, not just poachers, but what is the likely hood that some of the members on this lease are killing more deer than they should be and just not telling anyone??
Grouse?? Did you say grouse??? Whats that? that is a bird that is next to gone, if you see a grouse around my area, you better go get a lottery ticket! I have shot one in my life!!!! I got a deal for ya joe, Ill put you in my best stand for muzzy season if you take me grouse hunting down there, ill supply the dog!!!
The company line:
Management Goal
Although nearly everyone relishes the presence of the whitetail, when deer become abundant,
they can also become controversial. Deer may be viewed as a superb game trophy by the
sportsperson, a prized addition to the landscape by the nature enthusiast, a threat to crops by the
forester and farmer, and a road hazard by the motorist. Accommodating these diverse interests
has been the responsibility of the Division of Wildlife since deer returned to the state in 1923.
As Ohio’s herd grew, so did interest in deer and with it came the need for a formal deer management
goal. Since at least the late 1950s, our goal has been to maintain county deer populations at
a level that provides maximum recreational opportunity including hunting, viewing, and photographing,
while minimizing conflicts with agriculture, motor travel, and other areas of human
endeavor. In short, our goal is to provide enough deer to hunt and enjoy, but not so many that they
cause undue human hardship. This goal has received broad public support. For example, past
surveys indicated that 75 percent of farmers, 88 percent of deer hunters, and 73 percent of rural
non-farm landowners agree with this management goal.
As for a herd size, I remember back in the mid 80's hearing Bobby Stoll say 200k was a good number. I've also heard that number bounced around by the FB but it's unlikely we'll see that again anytime soon.
I believe a lottery for public land antlerless permits is in our near future. :smiley_blink:
Your not kidding. You know what that is going to accomplish ? It is going to speed up the leasing that we have seen already and screw even more hunters. Not to mention the guys like me that hunt on property that all you have to do is ask the landowner and he says " Sure here is your slip"