The Future of Hunting in Ohio

[Mike]

I'd like to see a break down of archery equipment to unrecovered animals. Are crossbows really easier or more effective?

 

[bigten05]

There are Many variables that need to be looked at and we all agree on most everything. But one thing that I have witnessed first hand around my areas are the kill permits that they have been handing out for years now. I remember walking with a warden and landowner and literally watched coons run out of the corn field where the corn was trampled just for the warden to say yep that's deer damage and gave the guy 40 permits. One area gets 100 a year and I was told by the owner, I only need one I'll just gut shoot them and let them run off. It completely ruined that 5 mile area around where I hunt you might see 5 deer if you drive that block where you use to see 30 or more. It seems like this conversation comes up every year after gun week, you can look from years passed just on these pages and see that the harvest from this group is way different than what it was even 6 to 7 years ago.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Are crossbows really easier or more effective?

Those aren't mutually exclusive. They are easier because the barrier to entry to "archery" hunting is easier... because they are more effective. You cannot argue that they do not simply the "point and shoot" process.

 

[at1010]

I watched most of the podcast in about 3 different segments.

I've beat this horse to mush already over the years. I will say this. Hunters have absolutely zero influence on what the future holds for hunting in Ohio. ZERO. The DOW is a business where hunters are the customer, but hunters are not the shareholder. Big agriculture and insurance rule the roost at the state legislature way above the ODNR.

One thing that wasn't really talked about was the "why". Why all of a sudden did baiting and leasing explode in Ohio. Why all of a sudden did everyone start dumping corn and trying to lock up property? If you've hunted in the state long enough you'll know that it primarily started to ramp up about 2008 when the DNR decided we had too many deer and hammered the population. When people saw their deer numbers plummet they did what any human naturally predisposed with greed would do. They set out to hoard what was left. They excluded and leased to lock up a place only they could hunt. They set about baiting as a way to see more deer again. From there leasing started to become more acceptable, farmers learned they could make money and their farmer neighbors wouldn't judge them for it. Then here come the out of state money leasers.

It's the same reason Rex bought a 29-acre lake that everyone in the community fished that produced two state-record fish and then he proceeded to kick everyone else out. Greed. Deer numbers drop and greed kicks in. Leasing and baiting become a thing.

Joe - lord knows you’re a smart man but there are some huge jumps made there. Like with any situation we can look outside our own experiment and compare results.

Let’s look at Alabama - why is leasing so big there? Same seasons? What about the DNR do they want all the deer gone (doe a day and 3 bucks a season - I believe)? Or is it a cultural difference? Yet they still have deer and continue to produce some great SE deer - despite these ridiculous restrictions. Because guys lease and set clubs up to control their own destiny with rules at the club - to grow big deer.

Ohio is the same. leasing had grown because of a few reasons
1. Big buck craze
2. Guys like Adam Hayes and Mike Rex shooting 200+ inch deer in Ohio. A state guys use to fly over to hunt Iowa or IL
3. Younger hunter demographic is more focused on archery - which tends to be more antler driven. What grows big antlers - getting deer age on them. What increased odds of getting age on them? Controlling more ground.

below chart - even as a sample size of buck aging shows how we as Ohio hunters have changed our focus from shooting anything during deer gun camp to wanting to shoot a “stud”.

that isn’t a bad thing but it certainly has created more guys shooting great 3s who otherwise would have shot the first spike that came by. Likewise - more guys are shooting does in order to not shoot a young buck.

most states would kill to have the data Ohio has on harvest. Every year we have this talk and again - I’ve never heard anyone complain about quality of our bucks or lack there of. And if we are seeing less mature bucks - it’s not cause of no deer imo. It’s cause more guys are trying to target mature bucks vs. a buck.

 

[at1010]

as we can see from this data - archery continues to climb. Again - more season. More time to hunt. More financially digestible to lease a farm for 6 months of season vs. a week - especially with a focus on a mature deer.

 

[bonemonger]

Here in lies the problem,most people are focused on buck size as a reason to hunt instead of the overall experience, leasing has exploded because of that. It has put a unstainable amount of pressure on public land for people just wanting to enjoy hunting and be able to see deer and possibly harvest one. Take the buck out of the equation and see what happens

 

[at1010]

as license sales have heavily declined- buck harvest data has increased.

I don’t think we have a deer density problem. I think we have a cultural shift occurring where everyone (good or bad) is after a trophy. The definition of a trophy is up to the person behind the trigger - but regardless we are shooting more bucks with less license sales.

we can blame the ODNR for a lot - but we as hunters needs to take some responsibility.

I myself am majorly focused on antlers and when I joined this website 10+ years ago as a young dude - I remember thinking “where do these guys even hunt to find deer like that” - it drove me to want to find and hunt big deer.

so the question is - how do we as hunters help a change and help more hunters get access to more ground.

Would we support higher license fees to support more grounds to be purchased?

 

[Gern186]

Start by charging non residents the reciprocal cost for hunting the state they are from. Someone from Illinois wants to come hunting here then they pay the same amount that Illinois charges an Ohio hunter to hunt there. Would be a starting point. Take care of your residents first.

 

[bonemonger]

You can't use money as a deterrent, people who are willing to spend thousands on a lease will not be deterred by a license cost. The only way to control it is by limiting buck tags. people can still come to Ohio and hunt, but only for does. You cannot win the battle by trying to price them out of the game

 

[Bigcountry40]

I am only 20 minutes in to the podcast and will listen to the whole thing, but here is my first question- How relevant is this podcast to the average middle class dedicated hunter? Most of the topics mentioned so far only pertain to dudes that have really deep wallets, running 150 cellar cameras is probably more than my entire deer hunting budget for the year. I feel like most us are just trying to to find our 140 inch buck before a squirrel hunter or the farmers boy on a four wheeler runs him off. This pod cast alone demonstrates the vastly different mindsets and obstacles hunters are facing and why there will probably never be a united front.

 

[Gern186]

You can't use money as a deterrent, people who are willing to spend thousands on a lease will not be deterred by a license cost. The only way to control it is by limiting buck tags. people can still come to Ohio and hunt, but only for does. You cannot win the battle by trying to price them out of the game

Nobody is coming to Ohio to just hunt does.

 

[giles]

Al, many of the things you are posting are telling me that same thing Mike was talking about, the difference in a deer hunter and trophy hunter. The buck age thing is flawed because we no longer have check stations. That graph is garbage to me.

 

[LonewolfNopack]

I'm so glad I took up fishing year round and don't worry too much about deer anymore. Otherwise I'd probably be in a constant state of depression anymore.

 

[bonemonger]

Nobody is coming to Ohio to just hunt does.

And that's my point, take away the incentive to come here

 

[bonemonger]

This is my last post on this subject,we as older hunters allowed a generation of younger hunters watching the outdoor channel and YouTube believe a minority of those people that the only way to enjoy hunting was by harvesting a buck scoring so many inches. It's the same way that the higher education facilities have brainwashed the youth in this country into believing going to work every day and being successful is a bad thing. I can still remember my first buck,a five point that I killed in West Virginia and my first buck that I killed with my bow. Neither one of them was a trophy by today's standards but they are the only two that make me smile and remember what it was truly like to just enjoy hunting. I'm afraid that hunting for deer has gone a path that I can no longer support.

 

[LonewolfNopack]

This is my last post on this subject,we as older hunters allowed a generation of younger hunters watching the outdoor channel and YouTube believe a minority of those people that the only way to enjoy hunting was by harvesting a buck scoring so many inches. It's the same way that the higher education facilities have brainwashed the youth in this country into believing going to work every day and being successful is a bad thing. I can still remember my first buck,a five point that I killed in West Virginia and my first buck that I killed with my bow. Neither one of them was a trophy by today's standards but they are the only two that make me smile and remember what it was truly like to just enjoy hunting. I'm afraid that hunting for deer has gone a path that I can no longer support.

100%

 

[Bigcountry40]

This is my last post on this subject,we as older hunters allowed a generation of younger hunters watching the outdoor channel and YouTube believe a minority of those people that the only way to enjoy hunting was by harvesting a buck scoring so many inches. It's the same way that the higher education facilities have brainwashed the youth in this country into believing going to work every day and being successful is a bad thing. I can still remember my first buck,a five point that I killed in West Virginia and my first buck that I killed with my bow. Neither one of them was a trophy by today's standards but they are the only two that make me smile and remember what it was truly like to just enjoy hunting. I'm afraid that hunting for deer has gone a path that I can no longer support.

This is an interesting point as I believe hunting and living the American dream (being successful) are on same track, parallel or whatever metaphor, word verbiage you want to use. Both are quickly becoming a case of the haves and the have nots. In both worlds people are feeling beaten, hopeless and give up. With a lot of youth or young people right now they feel like they can barely make it doing everything the right way and working, so why work at all (I'm not justifying, I'm simply expressing their feelings). This is similar to hunters who fights for access or hunt public land that have their hunts harassed or altered and have put in countless hours of work preparing. Within the next 20 years if something doesn't change whats happening in hunting land now will be how American society is with homeownership. But lets save that conversation for another day.

 

[GoetsTalon]

How many guys got into deer hunting because you can use a rifle now? Talk about easy. The deer population and big buck numbers in this part of northern wood county is the best it's been since I've started hunting. But go south ten miles and it's not what it use to be. I had a swing and a miss at what would have been my biggest buck with my easy crossbow. Didn't tell the story on here and I'm not going to other than it was a clean miss. I'm more pissed that pheasants are gone than deer but I don't deer hunt down south. Hopefully something will happen to get the population back for the southern counties.

 

[at1010]

Al, many of the things you are posting are telling me that same thing Mike was talking about, the difference in a deer hunter and trophy hunter. The buck age thing is flawed because we no longer have check stations. That graph is garbage to me.

We can only assume it’s flawed - if we have a specific outline of the sampling parameters and or a reason to think the sampling size was less or not randomized. If that was the case most maps would have an asterisk to show change in data set gathering.

I don’t think they made it up nor did check stations offer specific aging analysis. DNR has a way to locate hunters (state land for example) and pull jaw bones.

We could certainly make the argument about the accuracy of jaw bone aging but as long as the sample size and method stayed the same or within an allowable variance - as set out by testing parameters- we can still assume a linear trend in the direction the graph shows.

you line this up with anecdotal data and I think the majority of us would agree it’s headed that way -imo.

 

["J"]

Nonresident hunting licenses account for 11% of total sales.
Nonresident dollars On those licenses, 57% of their (ODNR) revenue.

That ain't going away……

Baiting will eventually go away as more and more outbreaks of CWD.

Leasing isn’t going away, it’ll only get worse.

These are takeaways from this podcast.