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Frustration, education, and safety in muzzle loaders!

Fullbore

Senior Member
6,449
138
South Eastern Ohio
Hey! I absolutely love my smoke pole! Its a TC Encore, and its bad to the bone. I shoot 3031IMR rifle powder out of it . 90 grains by volume and 77 grains by weight. I also shoot Hornady250 grain ballistic tips. I achieve 5 to 6 inch groups out at 200 yards. No joke! The beauty of it is, I treat it as I do all my center fire rifles. I did drill my breech plug out to the same diameter as whats in the shell casing of a center fire rifle.
 

Ohiosam

*Supporting Member*
12,037
205
Mahoning Co.
Hey! I absolutely love my smoke pole! Its a TC Encore, and its bad to the bone. I shoot 3031IMR rifle powder out of it . 90 grains by volume and 77 grains by weight. I also shoot Hornady250 grain ballistic tips. I achieve 5 to 6 inch groups out at 200 yards. No joke! The beauty of it is, I treat it as I do all my center fire rifles. I did drill my breech plug out to the same diameter as whats in the shell casing of a center fire rifle.

You are playing with fire.
 

Lundy

Member
1,312
141
Hey! I absolutely love my smoke pole! Its a TC Encore, and its bad to the bone. I shoot 3031IMR rifle powder out of it . 90 grains by volume and 77 grains by weight. I also shoot Hornady250 grain ballistic tips. I achieve 5 to 6 inch groups out at 200 yards. No joke! The beauty of it is, I treat it as I do all my center fire rifles. I did drill my breech plug out to the same diameter as whats in the shell casing of a center fire rifle.
.

I have multiple "smokeless" mz's and what you are doing scares me more than a little. Your choice, but I just REALLY hope no one else shooting a TC sees this and tries what you are doing.
 
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Dannmann801

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
10,959
205
Springboro
The last 4 post-ers in this thread constitute a wealth of knowledge and experience - if'n they said something to me, I would listen with an open mind.
Just sayin' whut I know.

This is a good thread.
 

finelyshedded

You know what!!!
Supporting Member
32,955
274
SW Ohio
I'll let Ron know what you all have said, I do know of several guys who have been doing this back home in the area he still lives and they all have been doing it awhile. I never have myself but I'll get the word to them/him.
 

Fullbore

Senior Member
6,449
138
South Eastern Ohio
Hey Guys, Thanks for your concerns and lpooking out. We and a fputs out. Thenew buddies have researched this action and have had great success. If the magnum TC encore 209mussel rifle will hand the gas pressures that 150 grains of pyrodex pellets puts out. Then it should work with my set up, and has for 10 years. We started at 60 grains and worked up the charge , reading the conditions of the primer each and every shot. I have shot this set up approximately 500 rounds with absolutely NO problems. S orry if I have upset anyone. I will say that I would not try this with any muzzle loader. We have achieved 2,300 ft. per second at the muzzle. Again, thanks for caring.
 

Fullbore

Senior Member
6,449
138
South Eastern Ohio
I haven't had to yet. The only thing other than making sure your powder is carefully measured. Is keep an eye on each primer that goes in my breech plug. I haven't had one so much as seize up yet. The 3031 powder is a slow burner. Like I said , I wouldn't recommend this to just anybody, bit it works great for me. I guess I was surprised at the responses I got, because this is being used by several people where I live. If anyone has any other questions , feel free to ask.
 
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Ohiosam

*Supporting Member*
12,037
205
Mahoning Co.
First I'm glad it's working for you, I sure hope it continues. Don't take offense because some of us are alarmed at what you are doing. I'll give my reasons so those who don't understand some of my concerns can be more informed.

I wouldn't call 3031 a slow powder. I used to use it in a .308 Win so I'm a little familiar with it. It is a little slower then some of the powders recommended by Savage but it still is a relatively fast rifle power. Of course fast powers are needed in large bores.

A quick look at 45/70 loads for a Ruger #1 puts the max of IMR 3031 at less then 60 grains and that is producing 50,000 c.u.p. . You are at 77 grains in a .50 any idea the pressure that load is developing? I have both an Encore and several #1s and the Ruger is much stronger, I wouldn't load an Encore 45/70 as hot as a Ruger in the same.

If someone wants to shoot smokeless in an Encore get one of these. http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/ BTW that site lists 72 grains of XMR 2015 as max, IMR3031 is very similar. Once again your load seems "warm" to me, especially in a rifle not designed for it.

I miked several barrels. Close as I can tell my .50 barrel has a wall thickness of no more then .245". A .270 Win barrel is .275" and a 7mm-08 barrel is .280" at the breech. More importantly I don't know either if T/C uses the same steel or if there are any differences in heat treating. No one else seems to have the answer to that question either. T/C says their barrels aren't designed for smokeless, I'm going to trust them.
 

Fullbore

Senior Member
6,449
138
South Eastern Ohio
Hey to everyone observing this thread. Ohiosam is absolutely right in what he is saying. I don't recommend or my intentions are not to mislead anyone. I simply wanted to know if anyone else was experimenting as we have. I usually don't have to shoot my gun much because my grouping is so good. Thanks again Sam for your reply.
 

"J"

Git Off My Lawn
Supporting Member
59,545
288
North Carolina
Glad this info is being put out... These guys have a lot of knowledge and experience as well.... :smiley_coolpeace:
 

Lundy

Member
1,312
141
Hey Guys, Thanks for your concerns and lpooking out. We and a fputs out. Thenew buddies have researched this action and have had great success. If the magnum TC encore 209mussel rifle will hand the gas pressures that 150 grains of pyrodex pellets puts out. Then it should work with my set up, and has for 10 years. We started at 60 grains and worked up the charge , reading the conditions of the primer each and every shot. I have shot this set up approximately 500 rounds with absolutely NO problems. S orry if I have upset anyone. I will say that I would not try this with any muzzle loader. We have achieved 2,300 ft. per second at the muzzle. Again, thanks for caring.

Full Bore,

I am very happy that you have had no problems shooting that load.

You are most likely shooting somewhere in excess of 50,000 lbs pressure, 3 pyrodex pellets is only around 25,000 lbs pressure. You stated that since these barrels were rated for the magnum pellet load that they were somehow proven safe for what you are shooting, that is hardly the case.

You don't really know what pressure you are shooting unless someone has attached a strain gage and done actual testing, but at 77 gr or 3031 it is way up there. It is great you have put 500 rds through with that load with no problems. I hope you are just as fortunate with number 501

What is the burst pressure design of your TC barrel that is not designed for smokeless pressures? If you double load a bullet what happens? If you switch to a 300, 325 gr bullet how much pressure increase to do see,will your barrel handle the increase? What is your safety margin?

You stated you achieve 2300 FPS at the muzzle. You need a new chronograph. That is WAY too slow for a 250 gr with that load

You stated you get 5-6" groups at 200 yds. That is not very good and really I think shows that the load (I'm sure it is not the shooter)is not the right load for the bullet.

I'm sorry, but Ohiosam is 100% on target here and it is compounded by some of your statements that would lead most to assume that you are just going with what everyone else does in your area instead of really having a full grasp of what is happening in your firearm. The 2300 FPS and 5-6" groups are statements that both point to a lack of real understanding and point to load issues based upon lack of accuracy

You do what you want, to each his own, but I just couldn't pull the trigger on your gun, just not worth it to me or my family

I am VERY SORRY to sound so damn preachy, Good luck going forward. I promise I won't say anything else on this subject.
 

Fullbore

Senior Member
6,449
138
South Eastern Ohio
To Lundy, Thanks for your looking out and your advise. You and Ohiosam seem to be very knowledgeable on this subject. However i do disagree with you saying my pressure is around 50,000 psi. My guns recoil is comparable with my 20 ga.3 inch magnum barnes expander. Plus it loads easy? I admit I don't know everything about it but i feel that Iam safe with this load.