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"Poaching" case goes to the Ohio Supreme Court

Ohiosam said:
When this law was passed the game warden spoke at my sportsman's club. He said this was only for "major" violations. He didn't define "major".
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I know what your saying but that's not what the law states. That's his personal opinion for enforcement. The law doesn't say anything about class or degree of offenses but rather any offense of ORC 1533; which is the entire hunting regulations to include written permission. It actually doesn't have to be a law that was broken, per the law it can even be a division rule. Say you're on a public land and they say no nails or spikes in the trees but you screw in a bow hanger. Per the law that's a violation of 1533 and could result in restitution if you kill a deer over 125. Or if you break a division rule on say a controlled hunt. It's not a law just a rule. Per the law was written it could result in restitution.

(1) In addition to any restitution value established in division rule, a person who is convicted of a violation of this chapter or Chapter 1533. of the Revised Code or a division rule governing the holding, taking, buying, sale, or possession of an antlered white-tailed deer with a gross score of more than one hundred twenty-five inches also shall pay an additional restitution value that is calculated using the following formula:
 
From past experiences the last person to ask about the law would be the GW, police officer, IRS agent, or ATF agent. They only offer their idea on the subject. Hell if the IRS fills out your tax filings and make a mistake you are solely are responsible for all past do taxes and interest due and the IRS is in the clear.
If it's not in writing from a higher up it doesn't mount to nothing.
IMHO
Ohiosam said:
When this law was passed the game warden spoke at my sportsman's club. He said this was only for "major" violations. He didn't define "major".
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Jackalope said:
I know what your saying but that's not what the law states. That's his personal opinion for enforcement. The law doesn't say anything about class or degree of offenses but rather any offense of ORC 1533; which is the entire hunting regulations to include written permission. It actually doesn't have to be a law that was broken, per the law it can even be a division rule. Say you're on a public land and they say no nails or spikes in the trees but you screw in a bow hanger. Per the law that's a violation of 1533 and could result in restitution if you kill a deer over 125. Or if you break a division rule on say a controlled hunt. It's not a law just a rule. Per the law was written it could result in restitution.

(1) In addition to any restitution value established in division rule, a person who is convicted of a violation of this chapter or Chapter 1533. of the Revised Code or a division rule governing the holding, taking, buying, sale, or possession of an antlered white-tailed deer with a gross score of more than one hundred twenty-five inches also shall pay an additional restitution value that is calculated using the following formula:
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I know, was never comfortable with what he said. Is shooting a deer 1 minute out of season major? Not plugging a shot gun? Not enough Hunter orange?

I wish the article was more clear on what grounds he is appealing. The Supreme Court doesn't hear ever little complaint. His lawyer must have found something to get the court's attention.

Don't take my discussion here as endorsement of how the guy behaved.
 
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Ohiosam said:
I know, was never comfortable with what he said. Is shooting a deer 1 minute out of season major? Not plugging a shot gun? Not enough Hunter orange?

I wish the article was more clear on what grounds he is appealing. The Supreme Court doesn't hear ever little complaint. His lawyer must have found something to get the court's attention.
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I think it's the fact that the restitution wasn't part of the sentence given by the judge. He's claiming that if he would have known that he would be fined by the DNR he wouldn't have taken a plea. It's likely the Supreme Court is hearing it because we need to determine if the DNR has the ability to fine someone post judgement. Traditionally if you get a ticket you can pay it and be on your way. Paying the fine is a guilty plea. Usually there is a checkbox for "plead guilty pay fine" or "I want to go to court". If you go to court and plead innocent there is a trial date set and the jury decides, the judge then makes a judgement for jail, fine, costs etc. Or you can say I want a trial, take a plea deal am plead guilty and the judge honors the plea deal and gives judgement for the plea that might be reduced fine, jail, etc. This guy is claiming that he went to court, plead guilty on a plea deal. The judge honored the plea deal and he went on. Later he was assessed restitution by the DNR. The way the law is written the DNR has the power to lay restitution for a person guilty of committing a wildlife violation that results in a buck over 125 inches being killed. His lawyer is likely arguing due process on the grounds that the DNR doesn't have the power to lay restitution post verdict independent of judgement. The DNR will claim due process was follows and a guilty plea triggers restitution as that's how the law is written. This could have been avoided if the restitution was put on the table upfront as part of the plea or as an initial fine.
 
I think Jackalope has hit the nail on the head. If your stopped for speeding in a vehicle, the police officer's job is to write a citation or ticket and send you off to court to see a judge. The Police officer cannot collect the usual fine, in the form of money. Once you have a court appearance on the violation and the judge or magistrate says guilty, he instructs you to pay a certain fine to the Clerk of courts. You do not hand the money to the law enforcement cop.
The judge found this guy guilty and announced the penalty which did not include the $28K. Later, the DOW decides the amount and wishes to collect, but they are not the judge nor the clerk of courts. the poacher should WIN. and since the judge did not say forfeit the deer. the poacher probably should be seeing a taxidermist.

in simple language, The DOW is not the JUDGE.
 
antiqucycle said:
I think Jackalope has hit the nail on the head. If your stopped for speeding in a vehicle, the police officer's job is to write a citation or ticket and send you off to court to see a judge. The Police officer cannot collect the usual fine, in the form of money. Once you have a court appearance on the violation and the judge or magistrate says guilty, he instructs you to pay a certain fine to the Clerk of courts. You do not hand the money to the law enforcement cop.
The judge found this guy guilty and announced the penalty which did not include the $28K. Later, the DOW decides the amount and wishes to collect, but they are not the judge nor the clerk of courts. the poacher should WIN. and since the judge did not say forfeit the deer. the poacher probably should be seeing a taxidermist.

in simple language, The DOW is not the JUDGE.
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If it's been proven that he took this deer illegally(on restricted property) how can he keep the deer even though the judge didn't say he must "forfeit" the deer?!?

Poacher said he wouldn't have plead "no contest" had he known he was going to be fined 28k restitution?!? WTF!!! Did you kill the fuckin deer illegally or not?!?!?!? Yes or no!!!! He tried lying and the investigation proved he did lie and killed it illegally...end of story as far as I'm concerned!

Restitution wouldn't have come up till after the courts final verdict IMO anyway. Just my .02....
 
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I worked at Willard CSX before quitting and returning to teaching, I know exactly where that deer was taken. Before the deer was killed, rail roaders would talk about that deer all the time. If you are stupid enough to try to hunt that close to a yard and then have people help you, you deserve that big of a fine. IMO
 
Same thing happened at SideCut metropark. Then the dickheads posted the picture on facebook. I'm thinkin that fine was close to 50K if not more for Sidecut Sam Which is the name givin to him by the locals. The Son of Sam also was poached and his rack is in the Lamb center at the park the DNR still has the other rack.
 
You would think it would be very simple if the ODNR made this a civil case. Completely different set of rules as far as burden of proof and anyone can file a civil case if there is a monetary loss. That would eliminate the double jeopardy aspect.
 
The ODNR puts rules in place about how hunters can hunt. The Federal and State constitutions put rules in place about how the ODNR can hunt (violators)
 
antiqucycle said:
I think Jackalope has hit the nail on the head. If your stopped for speeding in a vehicle, the police officer's job is to write a citation or ticket and send you off to court to see a judge. The Police officer cannot collect the usual fine, in the form of money.

.
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Try being an out of stater pulled over for speeding in Michigan. You better have the Cash or credit card on you, otherwise you'll be waiting for someone to Western Union that shit
 
bowhunter1023 said:
Sock it to him. The more publicly they hammer poachers' wallets, the more likely it will help prevent future poaching.
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That's my philosophy....hunting has been perverted into the worst form of greed and bastardized competition within our ranks.

Redhunter1012 said:
Try being an out of stater pulled over for speeding in Michigan. You better have the Cash or credit card on you, otherwise you'll be waiting for someone to Western Union that shit
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Hmmm.....I always heard the same about Ohio law enforcement......damn NR's! LOL
 
Flatlander said:
You would think it would be very simple if the ODNR made this a civil case. Completely different set of rules as far as burden of proof and anyone can file a civil case if there is a monetary loss. That would eliminate the double jeopardy aspect.
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And the DNR has the authority to under the restitution law. It states quite clearly that they can bring a civil suit if they even suspect you broke a law. This was done to give them two ways to go after poachers. Guilty verdicts after citations, and to circumvent judges who have notoriously given very light sentences to poachers.


(B) The chief of the division of wildlife or the chief's authorized representative may bring a civil action to recover possession of or the restitution value of any wild animal held, taken, bought, sold, or possessed in violation of this chapter or Chapter 1533. of the Revised Code or any division rule against any person who held, took, bought, sold, or possessed the wild animal.
 
((gross score-100)2 x 1.65) plus 500 fine for poaching any antlered deer in Ohio. 228.5-100=128.5, 128.5x128.5=16,512.25, 16,512.25x1.65=27,245.21, 27,245.21+500=27,745.21 total fine.
 
GoetsTalon said:
Same thing happened at SideCut metropark. Then the dickheads posted the picture on facebook. I'm thinkin that fine was close to 50K if not more for Sidecut Sam Which is the name givin to him by the locals. The Son of Sam also was poached and his rack is in the Lamb center at the park the DNR still has the other rack.
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Actually the dickheads drove a couple of counties south to check in the deer at a check station. On the way back coming north they decided to show it off at bass pro shops in rossford. Then the clincher is that they dumb asses didnt not only post it on facebook but also the DNR website. Who said that poachers are smart. And no the fines and restitution was less then the frieght train buck that we are talking about in this thread.
 
I remember the side cut park case as well. Don't remember exact fine amount, but sure it was way less than 50,000. And that deer was straight up poached with a crossbow at 1 am under a flashlight.
 
Is this SCP buck the one poached by those two younger boys(18-22) up around Toledo that everyone pretty much knew about that drove by the park by his very distinguishing rack and when the two morons drove several counties away to tag it they were eventually busted?

Reminds me of the big Adams county buck poached by the dude from Ky who got busted during the D&T expo a few years ago because a couple guys who were hunting the deer saw it on display there and had many TC pics of him and the poacher said he legally killed it nowhere near where he did in fact poach it!

Two examples of how cameras have helped busted poachers in the past!IMO
 
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