Questions about Buying Land

[Curran]

Alright TOOzers... just looking for some experience or insight when it comes to this topic. Here's the back ground:

Ever since the 1940's my family has had a cabin over in PA. It was always a place to go on the weekends, family members & friends used it to hunt, fish, and just spend quality time with one another. A place to get away, enjoy a campfire, a cold beer, and good times. The cabin was sold last year, which was the right thing to do since it really only got minimal use with most of the family spread across Ohio now, and was in need of some love.

Fast forward to now, I want to have a place like this to share with my kids while they're growing up. I'm starting to gather information and put together a plan for buying my own piece of hunting land within the next few years. I can't do it today, even if the right deal fell from the sky, so I'm going to need sometime to put things in order.

For those of you who've gone down this path, what insight can you share?

What things did you learn from the experience?

Did you use a land agent, or find places on your own?

If you could do it again, what would you do differently?

Do you own the land, or did you form a group with family & friends to make the purchase? (this comes with a whole other set of considerations I've been thinking about, forming LLCs, agreements, buy outs, etc.)

Like I said, I'm just trying to gain some knowledge. I can read things from books all day long, but hearing other people's experiences carries a lot more weight. Thanks for sharing your insight. I'm sure there's others on here maybe thinking about doing the same thing someday.

 

[Milo]

debbie downer moment...........


with the oil and gas industry moving in brother, your gonna pay through the nose for even a small piece.... this is a terrible time to be looking honestly. but i will answer your questions


1) set out rules a regs for the use and REASONABLE expectations. Also don't act like a city slicker when your down there. Nothing pisses people off more than buying a property and posting a no tresspassing sign every 5 feet. When your not there its gonna get used by someone so don' let it eat you up.

We formed a group to buy it and created stock or shares of the corporation for each member to have. We also setup rules that to cover things like divorces so the place would not be forced to sell. We just kept our nose to the ground and drove around a lot. we had some distant family in the area too. we actually found our place in the dispatch classifieds. Best advice I can give you is to use the TAX BENEFIT SHELTERS that work best for your family. There are MANY write-offs...i would do nothing different honestly other than buy more of it. it takes a lot of cooperation and understanding to do a group like this...there is a lot of tongue biting that happens too.

 

["J"]

debbie downer moment...........


with the oil and gas industry moving in brother, your gonna pay through the nose for even a small piece.... this is a terrible time to be looking honestly. but i will answer your questions


1) set out rules a regs for the use and REASONABLE expectations. Also don't act like a city slicker when your down there. Nothing pisses people off more than buying a property and posting a no tresspassing sign every 5 feet. When your not there its gonna get used by someone so don' let it eat you up.

We formed a group to buy it and created stock or shares of the corporation for each member to have. We also setup rules that to cover things like divorces so the place would not be forced to sell. We just kept our nose to the ground and drove around a lot. we had some distant family in the area too. we actually found our place in the dispatch classifieds. Best advice I can give you is to use the TAX BENEFIT SHELTERS that work best for your family. There are MANY write-offs...i would do nothing different honestly other than buy more of it. it takes a lot of cooperation and understanding to do a group like this...there is a lot of tongue biting that happens too.

It's the best piece of advice you can listen too.... This will sink the land deal faster then anything else.... Have seen it far too many times..... Milo spot on as usual.....

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

As Milo said, it will either be highly expensive for you, or you'll be looking at property that is sold without the mineral rights (no royalities, and you have no say when/where/how they drill).

Having a toe in the door of the land business, I can tell you that it's highly effective and efficient to have your own business in order. Do you have a will? Do you want to set up an LLC or a trust in your kids names, or a partnership agreement (if you have partners). Figure out if you want to set it up with your wife having interest in the property or not (Ohio is a dower's state, so she legally has rights to enter in the agreement and would sign any paperwork...or she has to sign that right away. I believe that this is a tax issue. My mom signed off of our house and had to do it again when they refinanced, but gets it in the will). Having your p's and q's organized before you meet a land agent or a lawyer will help you immensely and save you time, which saves you billable house which of course equals money. These are things you can research and decide on ahead of time and then go to a lawyer to draft it.

 

[Curran]

debbie downer moment...........


with the oil and gas industry moving in brother, your gonna pay through the nose for even a small piece.... this is a terrible time to be looking honestly. but i will answer your questions

I'm starting to see that. I've been watching prices start to increase. Some areas (probably more oil & gas heavy) are rising faster than others. I'm still seeing a fair amount of places around the $1k per acre mark though so there's hope yet... for now.

1) set out rules a regs for the use and REASONABLE expectations. Also don't act like a city slicker when your down there. Nothing pisses people off more than buying a property and posting a no tresspassing sign every 5 feet. When your not there its gonna get used by someone so don' let it eat you up.

We formed a group to buy it and created stock or shares of the corporation for each member to have. We also setup rules that to cover things like divorces so the place would not be forced to sell. We just kept our nose to the ground and drove around a lot. we had some distant family in the area too. we actually found our place in the dispatch classifieds. Best advice I can give you is to use the TAX BENEFIT SHELTERS that work best for your family. There are MANY write-offs...i would do nothing different honestly other than buy more of it. it takes a lot of cooperation and understanding to do a group like this...there is a lot of tongue biting that happens too.

I can only imagine. My thought on doing a group buy like this is that it would have to be structured from the beginning. I'd hate to go through the whole process and have something happen a few years down the road that would cause the group to have to sell. Ideally, I'd just be able to buy something myself, but that ain't gonna happen right now. The funds just aren't there. If I do go the group way, I'm going to start small. I have some family interested, but we'll see how that goes.

In your group, was anything official drafted up like an LLC or hunt club agreement?

 

[Milo]

LLC, and to be honest, its getting to the point that the land we have poured our sweat into is darn near a better option to sell it with the mineral rights. We can buy more, better and closer to home with that money. That option is on the table right now. were talking 6X what we paid for it...

 

[Buckmaster]

For those of you who've gone down this path, what insight can you share? A VERY FUN EXPERIENCE AND AN INVESTMENT WELL MADE.

What things did you learn from the experience? HOW THE LOCALS ARE WHEN YOU'RE THERE AND WHEN YOUR NOT = TRESSPASSERS, 4 WHEELERS, ETC.

Did you use a land agent, or find places on your own? BOUGHT 100 ACRES DIRECTLY OFF THE COAL COMPANY IN 1999 AS THEY WERE LIQUIDATING THEIR HOLDINGS.

If you could do it again, what would you do differently? I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT MORE LAND. AT THE TIME MY DOLLAR WOULDN'T STRETCH THAT FAR. HINDSIGHTS 20/20.

Do you own the land, or did you form a group with family & friends to make the purchase? (this comes with a whole other set of considerations I've been thinking about, forming LLCs, agreements, buy outs, etc.) MY FATHER AND I ARE CO-OWNERS.

BUY DIRECT OR AT LAND AUCTIONS IF YOU CAN. BEST OF LUCK

 

[Mike]

I hope my parents leave us the farm. That is the only way I'm going to get any land at this point. I always check the sheriff sales though, hoping I get lucky.

 

[Buckmaster]

Current values in my area are $2K per acre without minerial rights and $8k per acre with mineral rights. I just spoke with a lawyer last week in my area that handles gas works and real estate transactions.

It will also take significant cash money down to get started. Most banks won't lend for vacant recreational land. Farm Credit may give you a fair look but be prepared to have about 25% cash down.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Actually, he might be in good shape. With the oil and gas boom with come a drop in land prices (not all, but some). What is going to happen in some cases, and I believe it will happen a good bit, is people will lease the farm and get the big bucks, then sell out. The smart ones will keep the minerals and land without minerals is cheap. If you are willing to go that route, there will be cheap land to be had in the next few years...

 

[CJD3]

All I can say is if you are going in on the property with anyone else; put everything in writing. Everything.

Many many fond memories have been created over 4 generations on land our family has had.

 

[hickslawns]

I am closing next week on a small parcel here locally. I am mainly buying it for the building that sits on it though. It is just under 8 acres, but you know how that goes. "The right 5acres is better than the wrong 50acres." I won't say this is "the right" acreage, but I have killed a big deer in this woods and it is in close proximity to some amazing big buck land. Ridding the property of trespassers is going to be my biggest issue. My scenario is a bit different though. I am purchasing more for the building and on the non-woods acreage we will be planting nursery stock.

I have talked pretty serious in the past with my hunting partner about buying land. Ultimately, our decision keeps coming back to saving up and paying a bit more for a smaller parcel closer to home seems to be the best bet for us. If we are going to hunt out of town, we feel it is better just to lease the ground on long term leases (10yrs). We are exploring this option currently on several farms out of the area (out of state actually). Either way, having an LLC setup prior to finding the land is probably the first thing I would recommend if you are going it alone. Better to have everything in place well before you find the perfect property rather than to scramble trying to get the LLC setup.

 

[Darron]

debbie downer moment...........


with the oil and gas industry moving in brother, your gonna pay through the nose for even a small piece.... this is a terrible time to be looking honestly. but i will answer your questions


1) set out rules a regs for the use and REASONABLE expectations. Also don't act like a city slicker when your down there. Nothing pisses people off more than buying a property and posting a no tresspassing sign every 5 feet. When your not there its gonna get used by someone so don' let it eat you up. We formed a group to buy it and created stock or shares of the corporation for each member to have. We also setup rules that to cover things like divorces so the place would not be forced to sell. We just kept our nose to the ground and drove around a lot. we had some distant family in the area too. we actually found our place in the dispatch classifieds. Best advice I can give you is to use the TAX BENEFIT SHELTERS that work best for your family. There are MANY write-offs...i would do nothing different honestly other than buy more of it. it takes a lot of cooperation and understanding to do a group like this...there is a lot of tongue biting that happens too.

It is up to the owner if they want to post it. City slicker or not, it's their right. I post mine due to trespassing problems because it wasn't posted. I hardly have any problems now.

One thing I can recommend as a landowner is not to buy property without both mineral and timber rights. JMO I don't want someone coming in and cutting or drilling at anytime they want unless I allowed it (not a previous owner)

Also, make sure the property has a recent survey and the neighbors know where the lines are at. Some people own an acre and think they own 100.

If a fence marks the property line.............that is the property line no matter what a survey says, especially if it has been up for 20 or more years. Read the new fence law in Ohio.

 

[mrex]

I've been buying and selling rural real estate since I graduated from college in 1986. I've never inherited an acre of ground. As a matter of fact, my parents built their retirement home on 5 acres that I gave them. I can say that like most real estate purchases, the 3 most important variables for buying are location, location and location... and remember, the deal is made when you buy it, not when you sell it. 50 acres in a good rural neighborhood will hunt better than 500 acres in a bad one. Learn as much as you can about the neighbors / neighborhood as possible before you sign. The best scenario is to know or become friends with a local you can trust. I have several buddies who own land in this area but don't live here. A couple of them let me turkey hunt their ground and in turn, I look after their place when they're not here, (they don't turkey hunt themselves). I mow their grass, plow snow etc... One friend leaves a farm truck parked in front of his cabin. I move it every week or so to help make the place look lived in...nothing more inviting to thieves than no tracks in the driveway 5 days after a snow. I've also learned that you want to get along with your neighbors whenever possible...even if they occasionally abuse you. It is true, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It's not always possible to get along, but in my experience, bad rural neighbors are the exception and not the rule.

The #1 piece of advice I can give any perspective buyer would be under no circumstances, ever, ever, ever buy land that borders public hunting. I've lived this nightmare for over 23 years and it never gets better. Most real estate agents use public land as a selling point. They'll say, "ya', this place is only 20 acres but you've got another 1,000 behind you to roam around on." What they don't tell you is that every other hunter on that 1,000 acres thinks all the game is over on your place. Another negative is owning land that borders a heavily traveled highway. Highways are indiscriminate deer killers that seam to target mature bucks in the fall. Another rule of thumb is that the farther out of town or more remote your place is, the more susceptible you'll be to thieves and vandals but obviously, that is a problem everywhere.

 

[Darron]

I've been buying and selling rural real estate since I graduated from college in 1986. I've never inherited an acre of ground. As a matter of fact, my parents built their retirement home on 5 acres that I gave them. I can say that like most real estate purchases, the 3 most important variables for buying are location, location and location... and remember, the deal is made when you buy it, not when you sell it. 50 acres in a good rural neighborhood will hunt better than 500 acres in a bad one. Learn as much as you can about the neighbors / neighborhood as possible before you sign. The best scenario is to know or become friends with a local you can trust. I have several buddies who own land in this area but don't live here. A couple of them let me turkey hunt their ground and in turn, I look after their place when they're not here, (they don't turkey hunt themselves). I mow their grass, plow snow etc... One friend leaves a farm truck parked in front of his cabin. I move it every week or so to help make the place look lived in...nothing more inviting to thieves than no tracks in the driveway 5 days after a snow. I've also learned that you want to get along with your neighbors whenever possible...even if they occasionally abuse you. It is true, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It's not always possible to get along, but in my experience, bad rural neighbors are the exception and not the rule.

The #1 piece of advice I can give any perspective buyer would be under no circumstances, ever, ever, ever buy land that borders public hunting. I've lived this nightmare for over 23 years and it never gets better. Most real estate agents use public land as a selling point. They'll say, "ya', this place is only 20 acres but you've got another 1,000 behind you to roam around on." What they don't tell you is that every other hunter on that 1,000 acres thinks all the game is over on your place. Another negative is owning land that borders a heavily traveled highway. Highways are indiscriminate deer killers that seam to target mature bucks in the fall. Another rule of thumb is that the farther out of town or more remote your place is, the more susceptible you'll be to thieves and vandals but obviously, that is a problem everywhere.

Interesting comment about the highway.....very true......

Something else when dealing with neighbors. I have three neighbors that adjoin our property on the West and South side. All of them own 5 acres or less. I have learned neighbors who own small plots of land can sometimes be the worse because they will end up roaming on yours. The neighbors on my East side all own 20 acres-65 acres and we rarely have any problems with them, it's the people who own the small lots that you end up catching on your trail cams.

I agree one should try and make peace with your neighbors if at all possible, but as mentioned, sometimes you have to lay down the law if they are abusing you. I have a good friend who owns 80 acres across from me that lives in town (4 miles away) and he comes by and checks my place every night as he visits his property. I take him on some duck and goose hunts every year and he watches my place and helps me put in my food plots. Can't beat that deal!

 

[Curran]

Great point Guys... I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

Having good relationships with the neighbors is definitely understood. At our cabin in PA, there were only a handful of people that actually lived along the road. We knew them well, as well as many of the other people that had places up there. It was a general sense of community that everybody looked after each other. If something looked out of sorts you'd get a phone call. We cut each other grass, and did other stuff just to make the places looked lived in. In the winters the residents would always keep an eye out, but even then you were still risking getting broken in to. We lost several antique furniture items about 10 years ago when somebody came through and raided a bunch of the cabins one night. They only took antiques, left televisions, radios, and stuff you'd think they'd take. Nope, they knew what they were after and that's all they targeted.

The public land tid bit is one I've thought about as well. I'd like to be close to some public ground, but not bordering it. It's way too easy for people to just ease across the line they "didn't see" and end up hunting on your land. And by close I'm thinking under a 20 minute drive. That way if I have a cabin, or end up building one on the property, I can still have guest come down to stay and have enough places for people to go hunt.

Keep the info coming guys. Thank you!

 

[mrbowhunter]

We bought our property in 2008 from Bruner Land Company. 65 acres at less than $1000 an acre. They will do land leases which is how we started until I had the money to pay it off. We didn't buy ours for just hunting. We live there and are building a house also but you still can't beat their prices even with the gas rush coming. HOWEVER, it isn't going to last long. As owners of large tracts of land begin raising their prices Bruner's will have to. If there is any way you can swing the down payment now I highly recommend you find a piece and grab it soon.





Admin edit: link removed

 

[Jackalope]

There aren't many around here that are fans of Bruner. I'm happy you did good with them but we've heard plenty about their land lease business practices..

 

[Beentown]

Bruner works if you need a L/C but they inflate the prices considerably. You would be better off finding properties you like and then feel out the land owner.

 

[Darron]

I use to get a letter from Bruner every year asking to buy my place. After several times I got sick of it and left them a voice message to stop sending me letters. I finally stopped receiving them. If you get a minute, go on Bruner's website, click on some property and look at the restrictions they put on what you can do. It's ridiculous.