Fullbore
Senior Member
Yep! You hit that out of the ball park, Brock. I can't agree with you more. Well said, sir!
Shoulder Hits
- Thread starter at1010
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II have found a few shoulder blades in my recent past, not to my liking. I am a fine archer, winning several leagues in the past. More robin hoods than I can afford.
Now I hunt urban places where the deer without question bolt 40yds as a default to almost any un-natural movement. Needless to say smaller lots and minimal penetration are a recipe for disaster.
Drawing back a bow with a mechanical on the end of a chopstick has proved not effective in this enviroment. I now mainly use a crossbow shooting 360fps with a 150g slick trick to pin em to the ground.
Not proud but I once had to shoot a buck 3 times with those 3 blade rages cause the first shot did not do the job.
The first shot wasn't a bad shot either
Now I hunt urban places where the deer without question bolt 40yds as a default to almost any un-natural movement. Needless to say smaller lots and minimal penetration are a recipe for disaster.
Drawing back a bow with a mechanical on the end of a chopstick has proved not effective in this enviroment. I now mainly use a crossbow shooting 360fps with a 150g slick trick to pin em to the ground.
Not proud but I once had to shoot a buck 3 times with those 3 blade rages cause the first shot did not do the job.
The first shot wasn't a bad shot either
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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First you need a head that will handle a bone hit...thunderheads are a fine head for ribs..you need heads that are designed to crush bone. Muzzy, magnus etc. Shoot an arrow as heavy as you can stand to shoot well also..those two items will increase your success. The one shot i see people struggle with is the quartering away opposite shoulder shield shot..the head needs to be strong enough to stay in tact through a potential double shoulder pass through and or a rapid deceleration but still retain enough energy the break through the far shoulder.
Blackbeard
Senior Member
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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If you like them then please do not abandon them. Just know their limitations and what they do well and stick to those shots. Thats perfectly acceptable to do. Maybe throw one of those other heads into the quiver just in case they take a trail you know the TH's wont perform well on. I usually have a couple in my quiver at times including mechanicals. I wi actually vary the weight ofy arrows for longer shots becuase i know what errors i make when shooting long range and for me that is missing low. I also tend to miss right when i do so i have to keep that in mind for broadside shots and what head i use at that time.
All I know is the rage 2 blade chisel tip don't penetrate the shoulder. Found that out the hard way last year on a nice 9 point.
Blackbeard
Senior Member
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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The muzzy's have a hardened chisel tip that is structurally superior to the thunderhead tip. The stingers have a tanto tip the bexause of its shape it is able to pierce bone and stay in tact. Metal hardness is also a factor also but that a tough one for people to notice right out of the box.
I'll second Brocks sentiments. shoot the heaviest arrow possible and a cut on contact head. if I had to shoot a head that doesn't cut on contact, I'd use one with a trocar point. in thirty some years I've killed exactly one deer with something other than a two blade cut on contact head. it's hard to argue against their effectiveness. the one "other" was a few years ago when I got a wild hair and used three blade woodsman's. did the job just fine, and they do fly well. no better than any two blade I've used, though. and I'm all about a heavy arrow, typically 10-11 gpp, which is usally 650-700 grains for me. I've never shot a deer that seemed to notice that my arrow was only traveling at 175fps. dead is dead.
I had a very interesting conversation with Monte Browning a few years ago about broadheads and penetration, specifically about "tanto" points instead of "pointy" points on two blade cut on contact heads(zwickey, magnus, ribtek, etc). Monte has killed a pile of dangerous game with a longbow. Grizzlies, cape buff, hippo to name a few. I asked him about tanto points because on this particular hog hunt, I had just shot a sizeable hog quartering away with a Stos head on which I had changed the tip angle to a "tanto" point. appeared to be an ideal hit given the angle, but no exit hole. that didn't make any sense, until while removing entrails I discovered that the arrow had deflected upward off of a rib on the way in and stopped in the center of the underneath side of spine. did the job, taking out liver, lung and the carotid artery, but was troubling as I was on the ground and shot this pig at just shy of 15 yards at about 45 degrees quartering away. exit hole should have been in the opposite armpit. Monte tells me that he is not a fan of tanto points because of exactly what happened to me. he was helping me clean the hog, saw what had happened, and that's how we got on the subject. anyway, he feels that a pointy point will not deflect like a tanto can and actually does a better job splitting heavy bone. I asked him about the worry of curling a pointy point on something like a cape buffalo's ribs and he didn't have any concern over it. he showed me a hippopotamus rib that he had actually split in two, almost completely lengthwise with a zwickey(I think it was). of course, this was a 1500 grain arrow covered with vaseline from a 90lb bow, but impressive evidence to back up his opinion on the matter. I don't "tanto" my broadheads anymore, and I would not use one made that way, like a Magnus Stinger.
lots of variables that are out of our control when shooting arrows at live critters that don't exist on foam targets. it's always a good plan, the best plan, to do everything in our power to prepare for the worst, do our best. marginal hits happen sometimes, and a heavy arrow and sturdy, cut on contact broadhead is the best insurance we can take afield to turn a less than perfect hit into a lethal one.
I had a very interesting conversation with Monte Browning a few years ago about broadheads and penetration, specifically about "tanto" points instead of "pointy" points on two blade cut on contact heads(zwickey, magnus, ribtek, etc). Monte has killed a pile of dangerous game with a longbow. Grizzlies, cape buff, hippo to name a few. I asked him about tanto points because on this particular hog hunt, I had just shot a sizeable hog quartering away with a Stos head on which I had changed the tip angle to a "tanto" point. appeared to be an ideal hit given the angle, but no exit hole. that didn't make any sense, until while removing entrails I discovered that the arrow had deflected upward off of a rib on the way in and stopped in the center of the underneath side of spine. did the job, taking out liver, lung and the carotid artery, but was troubling as I was on the ground and shot this pig at just shy of 15 yards at about 45 degrees quartering away. exit hole should have been in the opposite armpit. Monte tells me that he is not a fan of tanto points because of exactly what happened to me. he was helping me clean the hog, saw what had happened, and that's how we got on the subject. anyway, he feels that a pointy point will not deflect like a tanto can and actually does a better job splitting heavy bone. I asked him about the worry of curling a pointy point on something like a cape buffalo's ribs and he didn't have any concern over it. he showed me a hippopotamus rib that he had actually split in two, almost completely lengthwise with a zwickey(I think it was). of course, this was a 1500 grain arrow covered with vaseline from a 90lb bow, but impressive evidence to back up his opinion on the matter. I don't "tanto" my broadheads anymore, and I would not use one made that way, like a Magnus Stinger.
lots of variables that are out of our control when shooting arrows at live critters that don't exist on foam targets. it's always a good plan, the best plan, to do everything in our power to prepare for the worst, do our best. marginal hits happen sometimes, and a heavy arrow and sturdy, cut on contact broadhead is the best insurance we can take afield to turn a less than perfect hit into a lethal one.
Blackbeard
Senior Member
Good stuff. Though I wasn't really looking for a new broad head because I've shot Thunderheads pretty much all my life and been happy with them other than the 2-3 times I hit deer in the shoulder and not recovered them. The only other heads I've used was the ABC heads because I could get them for free for awhile, and I wasn't impressed with them, Wasp, and Muzzy. So my thought when all this discussion started was should I shoot a heavier arrow and broad head that will penetrate bone better in case I ever shoot one in the shoulder again. I've always been intrigued by the cut-on-contact heads like Magnus but was scared to change. I had to read up on the difference between pointy heads and tonto heads and now my head is sorta spinning, but I have always liked the looks of the Magnus heads and haven't really ever cared for Muzzy. SO from reading everything here, seems like folks are suggesting a heavier aluminum arrow and a cut on contact head, some favoring tonto and some favoring pointy heads. Any final thoughts? Recommended aluminum arrow and broad head grain for my setup?
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A better recommendation, imo, is to stay off the shoulder. Shoot them 3-4" back from the leg and you'll hit the biggest part of the lungs and get great blood trails. Too close to the shoulder and you run the risk of hitting it. If you put it in the pocket there is lot of excess skin there that can hold a lot of blood that won't hit the ground. IMO, of course.
Lundy
Member
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Some where north of 50 deer with 2219's & 2317's, primarily a combination of Muzzy's and Thunderheads both 125 gr or heavier. Shoulder hits mixed in, some poor shot placements mixed in, all recovered. Longest shot every taken 31 yds. Lucky enough to have never lost a deer. I have always believed in a heavy, penetrating arrow with a strong broadhead.
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I think this is a super good point! Dont try to break a deer down, try to take the air out of its lungs. Of course, it happens at times, but thats a really good point brock.
I don't think people are aiming for the shoulder. If it were as easy as that, this thread and hundreds more across the web wouldn't exist.
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true, but Brock wasnt saying that I dont think. I think he was saying dont be afraid to be away from the shoulder a bit. Many many guys try to hit so close to the shoulder without hitting it.
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That's exactly right. If you aim where I would suggest, you are aiming a heck of a long way off the actual shoulder. Aim halfway between the leg and the last rib and hit the shoulder?...hang up your bow and wait for gun season! Nerves and excitement can get in the way, other factors too, sometimes we just screw up, but hitting the shoulder with that aiming point leads me to believe that is some POOR shooting.
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Me? If so, heck no. Sure, you'll hit a shoulder if done properly, but who cares if you hit it after you've run your arrow through every thing worth hitting.
Blackbeard
Senior Member
Understood, I know you weren't saying that I should quit aiming for the shoulder, as we all know from time to time we all make bad shots, and I've made a few, but thankfully the majority were right where you suggest.