Archertl
Senior Member
That's my take on the situation as well. I don't plan on taking a high angle shot unless its a last resort.
Straight down shots
- Thread starter Mike
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That's my take on the situation as well. I don't plan on taking a high angle shot unless its a last resort.
Never been offered this shot by anything I really wanted to try and kill. If it were a shooter and the shot provided an absolutely clear shot opportunity I would prolly try it but if I had the potential of having a better shot angle seconds later I'd prolly remain at full draw waiting for that instead.
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Personally, I don't believe there is a bow made that will blow through the spine if hit squarely. Nothing stops an arrow quicker than a big vertebrae. It makes no difference however, since a severed spinal column equates to a deer that isn't going anywhere.
There is no way I would shoot one straight down through the back. Once upon a time I would have tried it. That time is passed. I shot two last year that only got one lung. One I lost. The other died, an hour after the shot. I don't like steep angles at all, just from the results I've seen over the years, and you cannot get any steeper of an angle than straight down. Having stared down on the backs of quite a few deer over the years, I can certainly see where the temptation comes from...but it's a bad shot IMO.
There is no way I would shoot one straight down through the back. Once upon a time I would have tried it. That time is passed. I shot two last year that only got one lung. One I lost. The other died, an hour after the shot. I don't like steep angles at all, just from the results I've seen over the years, and you cannot get any steeper of an angle than straight down. Having stared down on the backs of quite a few deer over the years, I can certainly see where the temptation comes from...but it's a bad shot IMO.
ohio mossy oak
Senior Member
Can anyone think of a way to test arrow penetration on a whitetail spine,without using a live animal in the test?I am curious as to what a slick trick magnum tipped 445 grain arrow going 350fps can actually do...
Shoot one then use it for testing. I know one thing it will do...make it paralyzed and baul like hell. Then you knock another too finish.
ohio mossy oak
Senior Member
ImpalaSSpeed96
Junior Member
I've done it on multiple occasions and will continue to until I have an ill effect from it. Any time I've missed the spine, which was only once, I had a great blood trail and short recovery. Last year's deer was 3 yards away, on a bit of a hill up, so the angle was ideal. He dressed at 166, so he was not small. My broadhead was stopped by the sternum. Had it not hit the sternum, it would have came out. Passed through, maybe not, but definitely came out. I could feel it in his brisket. Also, it went through the spine, not left, not right. I'm shooting a Z28 maxed out at 68lbs, and was using a 27.5 inch FMJ with an Exodus head.
Caveat, I would never take this shot with anything other than a fixed blade broadhead.
Caveat, I would never take this shot with anything other than a fixed blade broadhead.
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Your bow is shooting around 105+ KE with the arrow weight you selected. I have never shot slick tricks, but if they are built even close to what everyone says, your bow would do fine. Even better, shoot just off the spine.
Bowhunter57
Senior Member
ohio mossy oak,ohio mossy oak said:
That is an outrageous amount of K.E., sir. Wow!
The K.E. formula goes like this: Speed x Speed x Total Arrow Weight / 450240 = K.E.
So, with the numbers you're showing:
350 x 350 x 445 = 54,512,500 / 450240 = 121.07 Lbs. of Kinetic Energy.
Also, here's a link to Easton Archery's K.E. page.
http://www.eastonarchery.com/store/kinetic_calculator
For a comparison, I'm shooting 270 f.p.s. with a 400gr. arrow. 52# and a 27" PSE carbon arrow and a 100gr. tip weight.
270 x 270 x 400 = 29,160,000 / 450240 = 64.7 Lbs. of K.E.
Your added 80 f.p.s. and 45gr. of arrow weight adds a lot of K.E. to the mix. Serious penetration medicine!
Bowhunter57
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ohio mossy oak
Senior Member
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Interesting. I've never shot one through the spine from straight above. Perhaps it's different from that side. I shot some serious gear back in the day, and NEVER had an arrow blow through the spine. The would break the spine, but never went through. Perhaps you hit between vertebrae and I never did. I dunno, but I will NEVER take that shot as certainly as you will again if given the chance.
I've had same experience Brock. If you are blowing through the spine, its only a matter of time. Be proactive not reactive. Learn from others mistakes.
I did one time years ago and it has haunted me since, I never found the deer, and the way he struggled to get up and run killed me!! Since then, I try and make sure I can make the most ethical, clean kill I can. I believe that we, as hunters owe that to the deer that we try and harvest.
ImpalaSSpeed96
Junior Member
I do not prefer it Brock, and do not look for it. It is a last resort for me. I guess I should have been a bit clearer about how I was coming across actually. If I have a shooter under me and he's on a mission, and I'm worried he'll be out of there, Ill take the shot. If he's just going for a stroll, I'll wait until something better is presented. I would also somewhat agree with the between part Brock. All I know, is that it was very centered, I couldn't even get the broadhead out. I had to pull it tight and unscrew it. Certainly not ideal, and I have passed that shot up before to get a clean broadside shot, but I've had a lot of luck putting deer down with spine shots. Some have been accidental, but this was the first purposeful one that went off without a hitch. He was dead in 30 seconds since it cleaned out his heart. I would say pass, unless you have to take the shot. That's really all I was getting at. And I'd rather take this shot than a quartering to shot.
Edit: And an add on to this, I want to say ethical can have to do with knowing where to shoot also. I have had luck with this shot by putting it right behind the shoulder line. I shot a deer quartering away when i was younger. Made a perfect shot, at least where I was aiming. 35 yards and tucked it right behind the shoulder, lodged in opposite shoulder. For whatever reason, I struggle with instictively shooting far back. I never did find that deer. That was also probably due to me not realizing what damage I had done and pushing him too soon on only one lung. Point being, sometimes a good shot is just more than an angle.
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I'll just go ahead and say it. Right or wrong, if there is a buck I want to kill in range of me, I'm letting an arrow rip. No need to force this shot on a doe IMO, at least for me. However I'm not one of those guys who has the same set of "ethics" or standards for a doe or BB as I do an OBB. I trust myself and my equipment to stick a big old buck in the back and make it count. And if I ever screw that shot up, I know I'll have to live with it. Just a chance I'm willing to take that others might not.
This is one of those pins and needles issues it seems. I'm not very PC in the treestand when it comes to killing something. So I won't pretend to be Mr. Righteous on here. Do what you got to do to and be ready to live with it, even if that means watching the buck of your dreams walk out of sight because you wouldn't take a straight down shot. Every choice we make comes with consequences, this is no different.
This is one of those pins and needles issues it seems. I'm not very PC in the treestand when it comes to killing something. So I won't pretend to be Mr. Righteous on here. Do what you got to do to and be ready to live with it, even if that means watching the buck of your dreams walk out of sight because you wouldn't take a straight down shot. Every choice we make comes with consequences, this is no different.
buckstar25
Junior Member
This is the result of trying a straight down shot, not directly below me but 3 steps. Like Jesse said, living with the consequences....that's what I am doing. Granted I had deflection off of a branch but regardless the buck has a sore neck. That's out of 67lb Hoyt razor tec, 488gr FMJ tipped with Swhacker. The one thing that haunts me is that I pushed the shot, I can deal with deflection but I pushed the shot and got too confident. I don't think I will ever take that shot again. On a lighter note, the buck is fine, he offered and ducked a 25yd shot Saturday morning.
Moral of the story, it's not for me.
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Not trying to make you feel worse but I would never try with a mech head. Especially not a rage or swacker. Those heads aren't designed for bones. IMO they don't have the ass to bust bone and sever or damage the spinal cord. With blades like those I think they hurt more than help in such a shot. You might have got better performance from a field tip as at least it doesn't have blades it needs to break off before it can penetrate to the spinal cord. What I'm saying is the blades actually act to stop the arrow vs help it penetrate.
badger
*Supporting Member*
Back about the time I quit shooting muzzy's, I read a story about a buck a guy shot straight down with a muzzy, and didn't find the deer. The story continued with the guy killing the buck a season or two later. Had pics of the 125 buried deep in the spine, all healed up.
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I remember seeing that too, Dale. It was a cool pic to see. I shot a doe that was angled away pretty sharp once. Hit high, with a nearly 700 grain arrow, traveling 265 fps. A 130 gr Muzzy on the front. That arrow hit the spine, ran right up the center of 6 vertebrae. Dropped her, and she died in seconds from 36 steps. That impressed me as it was the best penetration I'd ever seen into a spine. Most usually, the broadhead never broke completely out the opposite side, just sticks in the bone as it had in the pic you mentioned previously. It's just a matter of if you get in enough to sever the spinal cord or not. From above, it may be different, but from the side, that is some pretty tough stuff to put an arrow through.
buckstar25
Junior Member
The branch is what did it for my shot, I have seen a Swhacker (shot angle with deer facing away) penetrate completely through to the brisket of a buck, the shot was mid way towards the ass angle into the chest. Buddy got shit lucky on it, but yeah I see what you mean Jack, I usually have Strikers on my arrows but decide to give Swhackers a shot.....ho hum!