Youth hunters

[Jackalope]

It would be nice to not have to deal with that. I don't have the extra money laying around for it.

You don't need 200 acres. Just the right 20. Think about that one spot the old hippie lady owns who won't let people hunt and there's always deer in the field. Or that one block of woods close to town where you saw that monster cross the road. Save you pennies and go ask them if they'll take three or four hundred to hunt to it.

A couple of years ago I leased 30 acres for 500 bucks. The best 500 bucks I've spent on hunting in a very long time. I didn't shoot a monster, hell I didn't even see one. But my wife got a shot at a nice one from the blind but she hit the blind pole, later that day she shot a doe. Travis shot a nice doe with his bow. We saw tons of deer, turkeys, a weasel, and even a pheasant out of that blind. I didn't have to deal with a single trespasser or other Yahoo out there. It was just a very enjoyable place to hunt.

 

[MK111]

You don't need 200 acres. Just the right 20. Think about that one spot the old hippie lady owns who won't let people hunt and there's always deer in the field. Or that one block of woods close to town where you saw that monster cross the road. Save you pennies and go ask them if they'll take three or four hundred to hunt to it.

A couple of years ago I leased 30 acres for 500 bucks. The best 500 bucks I've spent on hunting in a very long time. I didn't shoot a monster, hell I didn't even see one. But my wife got a shot at a nice one from the blind but she hit the blind pole, later that day she shot a doe. Travis shot a nice doe with his bow. We saw tons of deer, turkeys, a weasel, and even a pheasant out of that blind. I didn't have to deal with a single trespasser or other Yahoo out there. It was just a very enjoyable place to hunt.

I had the same thinking 3 years ago about leasing the adjoining woods and field to my food plots.
I went with cash in my hand but the answer was NO. Have someone else hunting the other part of the farm. But you can shoot deer on my property from your land (hunting tower) but you can't come over and hunt it. I've take couple nice bucks off that 3 acs.
It doesn't take much land just the right area with deer, put in some good enticing food plots and the deer will come. It took 3 yrs before I had bucks feeding in the food plots. But during the rut, before and after the rut the bucks traveled the plots looking for does.

 

[cspot]

My opinion on leases though is that you are money ahead to purchase land. Kinda similar for renting vs owning your house. Some advantages and disadvantages to both sides.

I agree with the above though that you don't need a ton of ground to have a great hunting spot.

 

[giles]

Here a simple fact, everyone I hunt with will have to stop hunting when that day comes. Time to regroup my finances and think more about buying more property before 10 years. I don't like it and it pisses me off to no end that it has become a fucking sport of pocket books! If you thought the sky was falling because of the ODNR...haha, this will surely help supply the nails in that coffin.

Yes, this is a comment of emotion. I realize that and don't much give a shit. The sky is falling for those that live paycheck to paycheck, which is a majority of the US population.

 

[Jackalope]

Here a simple fact, everyone I hunt with will have to stop hunting when that day comes. Time to regroup my finances and think more about buying more property before 10 years. I don't like it and it pisses me off to no end that it has become a fucking sport of pocket books! If you thought the sky was falling because of the ODNR...haha, this will surely help supply the nails in that coffin.

Yes, this is a comment of emotion. I realize that and don't much give a shit. The sky is falling for those that live paycheck to paycheck, which is a majority of the US population.

I dont buy that man. Leasing in the south is prolific. Everywhere is lease and everyone has a place to hunt. Even the poor folks. If that day came everyone you hunt with would likely throw in together and form a hunting club and lease a place. I've seen lease memberships back home in the paper from $200 a year to 200k partial ownership. They either lease as a group or own as a group. I've seen adds for 1/50th ownership in a club. They would find a way.


One could argue that the DNR helped to spur leasing along by encouraging the over harvest. It makes guys want a place of their own even more. Somewhere they can plant plots to attract deer and pass does instead of everyone killing them all. I said it years ago that the DNRS reduction plan would eventually backfire because leasing to manage the local population would become popular. When that happens the DNR loses the ability to mislead people into killing too many deer.

 

[Jackalope]

My opinion on leases though is that you are money ahead to purchase land. Kinda similar for renting vs owning your house. Some advantages and disadvantages to both sides.

I agree with the above though that you don't need a ton of ground to have a great hunting spot.

I don't agree with this. The money spent leasing isn't recoverable but neither is the interest paid to banks.

For example if you finance $100,000 in property at today's lowest recreational land rate for a 30 year fixed it's 5.8%. Over the life of the loan you'll pay $112,379 to the bank. Around here 100k might get you 20 acres. But let's say southern ohio where you might get hillside for 2k an acre. That's only going to buy you 50 acres. At $112,379 interest over 30 years that's $3,746 per year in interest alone. Assuming the lease price is $20 an acre you could lease 180 acres per year in what you would pay in interest to buy 50 acres. So you can lease over 3x the land for what you would pay in interest. And that's just the 100k you financed. The property your borrowing for would have to be 150-200k and you would have to pay 25-50% of that before they would even consider loaning you the 100k remainder.

The added beauty of a lease is you're not pinned down. Decide you don't like the place then lease somewhere else . The hope with purchased land is the price would go up over the 30 years you owned it. But the reality is that's mostly inflation and not value that raised the price.

 

[cspot]

I don't agree with this. The money spent leasing isn't recoverable but neither is the interest paid to banks.

For example if you finance $100,000 in property at today's lowest recreational land rate for a 30 year fixed it's 5.8%. Over the life of the loan you'll pay $112,379 to the bank. Around here 100k might get you 20 acres. But let's say southern ohio where you might get hillside for 2k an acre. That's only 50 acres. At $112,379 over 30 years that's $3,746 per year in interest alone. If the lease price is $20 an acre you could lease 180 acres per year in what you would pay in unrecoverable interest for 50 acres.

True but you are building equity when purchasing and after 30 years you own it. The property should also be worth a lot more in 30 years then what you paid for it. Leases may not last forever so you put time and money into it and then lose it.

I don't think most banks will do 30 years for land only anyway. You are better off using equity from your primary residence as the rate is a lot better.

Again like I said there is advantages and disadvantages both ways. Depends on your plans and goals. When I started I looked at leases but decided to purchase instead.

 

[cspot]

One nice thing about leasing is if you don't like it you can switch properties after the term is up. When purchasing that isn't so easy.

 

[Jackalope]

True but you are building equity when purchasing and after 30 years you own it. The property should also be worth a lot more in 30 years then what you paid for it. Leases may not last forever so you put time and money into it and then lose it.

I don't think most banks will do 30 years for land only anyway. You are better off using equity from your primary residence as the rate is a lot better.

Again like I said there is advantages and disadvantages both ways. Depends on your plans and goals. When I started I looked at leases but decided to purchase instead.

Equity is a farce in today's lending market. The only people who really make money on property are those that flip them, banks, the lucky few who bought before development, or those who paid cash and sold for more than the rate of inflation.

What most call equity is largely inflation. In 1986 (30 years ago) say someone spent 100k on a piece of property. Today it's worth 175k so you think you made out to the tune of 75k. You didn't. The value of that 100k of 1986 money today is 220k. So its actually worth 55k less than what you paid for it. And thats not even couting the 112k in interest paid. Know who did make out like a bandit? The bank that the borrower paid 112k in interest to.


If you add it all up you spent 100k principal + 120k interest so 220k total to sell a property for 175k. That due to inflation is worth 50k less than you paid in principal alone. By the time you add in interest you lost 170k not made 175k. But since we have 175k check in our hand we think we made out. Really that's only 79k in 1986 money.

 

[cspot]

Equity is a farce in today's lending market. The only people who really make money on property are those that flip them, banks, the lucky few who bought before development, or those who paid cash and sold for more than the rate of inflation.

What most call equity is largely inflation. In 1986 (30 years ago) say someone spent 100k on a piece of property. Today it's worth 175k so you think you made out to the tune of 75k in equity. You didn't. The value of that 100k of 1986 money today is 220k. Know who did make out like a bandit? The bank the borrower paid 112k in interest to.

Well with inflation in 30 years your lease will also be a lot more in cost. Also in 30 years in your example I am no longer paying and a lease you still have a payment. We could go back and forth all night and truthfully it would depend on the market and the individual property. No one can guess what will happen in 30 years.

I also want something to pass on to my kids and grandkids when the time comes.

 

[giles]

I've got a bit much in the emotions going on this to comment much more. Who knows, maybe I'll end up thanking you (Joe) when I buy some land. Not much in that mood right now though, so I'm gonna try and shut up.

 

[wv67]

Thanks , I hope so looking forward to it she's taken quit a few deer she's itching for a tom now be her first go at it

 

[Jackalope]

Well with inflation in 30 years your lease will also be a lot more in cost. Also in 30 years in your example I am no longer paying and a lease you still have a payment. We could go back and forth all night and truthfully it would depend on the market and the individual property. No one can guess what will happen in 30 years.

I also want something to pass on to my kids and grandkids when the time comes.

I see your point man but even after the bank is paid you still have pay yearly property taxes, in a lot of cases that's equal to or more than a property would lease for. So in essence the owner is paying the tax man to lease his own property and keep from losing it. I get the passing it down to your kids part and thats true. I was trying to explain how leasing is a more financially viable option.

 

[giles]

How does sub leasing help financially?

How does leasing 30 acres help if the neighbor is moron?

Those small, affordable leases are hardly enough property to manage a herd. All I see here is you dancing to your own tune. Hopefully there will continue to be enough property owners that don't fall to greed and continue to still see good in people.

 

[Bigcountry40]

I think leasing is great, it gives the property owner a way to make some money for the property tax and the hunter typically cares more because they are paying out of their own pocket. Its pure, good and honest, until a giant middle man comes corrupts the entire system a.k.a base camp, Outfitters, guys leasing 2k acres that then sublease. Because of these middle men it causes all sorts of issues and puts more pressure on availability of accessible land. So then the question becomes why introduce the kid down the road to hunting and then have to compete with him in 10 years? This is what makes hunting unique compared to other sports such as golf, racket ball, softball, quality of the product doesnt not completely diminish on a public golf course compared to a private. Perfect example are pheasant releases on state property its a freaking war zone for the most part.

 

[Jackalope]

How does sub leasing help financially?

How does leasing 30 acres help if the neighbor is moron?

Those small, affordable leases are hardly enough property to manage a herd. All I see here is you dancing to your own tune. Hopefully there will continue to be enough property owners that don't fall to greed and continue to still see good in people.

I didn't say sub leasing was more financially viable. I said leasing was and gave you numbers to show it.

Moron neighbors exist regardless of leasing or granted permission. The major diference is you don't have to put up with a plethora of morons where you hunt. And while 30 acres is too small to manage a deer population it's not too small to set stands, blinds, a small plot or feeders and hunt it smart without worrying about what idiot is going hunt your stand, or piss off the landowner and get everyone kicked out.

As for landowners being greedy it's their land. Pretty shitty to call someone who pays the taxes greedy for wanting to recover some of their costs. Good person or not they don't owe nobody shit. As for seeing the good in people you're living in the past, there's a reason so many landowners don't allow hunting and its not because they're animal lovers. It's because hunters screwed it up and got everyone kicked out. Some people are tired of dealing with it and are willing to pay to hunt a nice place.

As for dancing to my own tune. Open your ears the tune is already playing, leasing is already rampant and it's not going to stop, might as well dance.

 

[giles]

I think you are officially ready to be a politician.

 

[cspot]

I see your point man but even after the bank is paid you still have pay yearly property taxes, in a lot of cases that's equal to or more than a property would lease for. So in essence the owner is paying the tax man to lease his own property and keep from losing it. I get the passing it down to your kids part and thats true. I was trying to explain how leasing is a more financially viable option.

I am not totally disagreeing with you about leasing. It definitely has it's advantages and depending upon one's personal and financial situation, it may be the better option. I think part of it for me is I like to have complete control of the property.

Whether you are leasing or buying, finding the right property is the key.

 

[wv67]

I've been leasing with friends for 13 yrs , and we have plenty of public places that aren't over run here if ya know where to go I got into it for the fact I don't worry about my stands getting stolen , people in my spot and I got to show my kids how I wanted and how to be respectful of others , I have taken them on public a time or two , but leases here aren't as expensive as Ohio or Illinois etc I pay 3300 ( well 8 of us ) a year for 1000 acres has a big pond plenty of deer , Turks and Bear and quit a few grouse ya can camp use four wheelers .. and there's tons of land for lease.....

 

[Bigcountry40]

I've been leasing with friends for 13 yrs , and we have plenty of public places that aren't over run here if ya know where to go I got into it for the fact I don't worry about my stands getting stolen , people in my spot and I got to show my kids how I wanted and how to be respectful of others , I have taken them on public a time or two , but leases here aren't as expensive as Ohio or Illinois etc I pay 3300 ( well 8 of us ) a year for 1000 acres has a big pond plenty of deer , Turks and Bear and quit a few grouse ya can camp use four wheelers .. and there's tons of land for lease.....

Thats the biggest difference no one is knocking down west Virginia's doors to hunt deer, except for me apparently (our trade hunt), if I lived farther south and was closer to west virginia I would probably get a lease there. I hunt Woodbury state land in Ohio and every year(along with private property and my lease land), bow hunting gets more and more difficult with congestion. Gun hunting stays about the same, I really don't mind the pumpkin patch hunting during gun and will probably hunt public with my boys on and off until I die. The idea that "go deeper and you'll succeed" is now done by tons of hunters. I intend to buy land in the upper part of the lower part of Michigan where there is a national forest, land is cheap there bowing hunting is very under crowded, I don't care if my boys and I only kill 95'' bucks, not having 30 carhart carls stomping around the woods with a crossbow during the rut is very appealing to me.