I don't agree with the early.muzzy season at all. Muzzleloaders ate no longer a primitive weapon
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- Thread starter Ohiosam
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I don't agree with the early.muzzy season at all. Muzzleloaders ate no longer a primitive weapon
huntn2
Senior Member
Nope! That is why I have been saying they need to micro manage the herd in smaller subgroups.
Permits should be sold by county at a minimum to better understand and manage on a local level. Currently the ODNR has no idea how many hunters are taking to the woods in a particular area.
Kills can stay flat and can even increase when less deer exist in the area...its called more hunters hitting the area and more permits being made available. I have posted in other threads that the number of license and permits sold has increased year over year till last year I think (i dont have the data available at the moment). In addition to total deer killed, we need to look at it as a variable unit of measure such as deer killed per license and percent of permits sold that get used. Even that though to Wayne's question isnt enough.
Metrics need to be captured in smaller subsets and the herd needs to be managed in those same subgroups.
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PA currently does the doe tags this way why can't the Ohio DNR???? They could be adjusted by the kill rates from the previous year and raise and lower accordingly.....
Ryan, that would take work and I'm not sure they want too put that much into from the looks of it.... If so they would of started by now on their own with out a wall of discontented hunters nudging them along... But from the looks of it that's what may have too happen.....
Lot of ideas about how the ODNR should manage the herd but at this point I see no indication that the ODNR wants anything other then continued decline in the herd size. If you want change I don't see it coming from ODNR anytime soon.
Back too my previous post, I currently drive almost 40 miles each way too and from work... I cross 3 counties while doing it and traveling both rural and city areas.... Route 62 out of Salem (Mostly rural) too Route 11 @ Canfield (City) through Austintown, Girard, Both Cities... Vieanna small rural area too the Base..... The only dead deer I see along the road are in and around the cities with no hunting allowed.... Rural areas have hardly any road kills the last few years.... Most of the live deer sightings are in and around the cities with Canfield having the most, I see them there daily.... And usually 5 or 6 together..... Austintown is the next area I see deer on a regular basis and is a no hunting area for the most part untill you get on the outskirts too the west of it.... Sam can probably verify this since that's part of his area as well....
You can look at my team 3 hunting journal with the hours on stand and deer sightings it has been a dismal season for sightings from years past.... I've hunted this area for close too 5 years with the land owners SOn who lived there as a kid and grew up hunting and trapping the whole property as well as the neighbors.... He's even commented on the numbers the last few years as well.... Last years wasn't as bad but looking back on it it was on the decline.... The neighboring properties are if it's brown it's down type hunters and will fill every tag they have and then some I would imagine..... The two adjoining neighbors are in the same mind set as my buddy and I let the little ones walk take a doe or two and keep the ratio as close as we can..... But with the other neighbors not of the same mindset we're pretty much screwed.... I saw 4 doe opening day of gun... passed on them, saw them on tuesday and passed on them again and wednesday I think I spooked when I went too leave.... Didn't hunt it but an hour friday and an hour Saturday until I gotthe call from the party I joined for the deer drives we were doing.... No deer sightings and very few shots out there all week....
Put on drives thursday, friday, saturday and sunday and we pushed a boat load of land too which 1 Button buck downed which he thought was a doe @ 80 yards.... We had a total 13 deer bumped in all those days of pushing and none were what was called a shooter.... One small basket 6-8 point.... All in all we probably pushed 5 square miles of land, now some of it was broken up by boundries were didn't have permision on but it was open enough if we moved deer into it we would of seen them.... These guy's have been hunting together since 1995 and this is by far the worst year too date since they started..... Their Dad's got them involved and hunted all the land prior and they even said it reminded them of the 70's.....
These guys aren't brown it's down kinda guys, they will take a few doe but there motto is if you ain't going too put it on the wall then don't pull the trigger..... 3 doe were missed by youngsters but no bucks were shot at because none were seen....
Suday stopped by Zeppernick WA and talked too a guy and his son and he had hunted there for 35 years and said it was a very bad year for seeing deer, hardly any shooting as well and he hunted it every day of gun season.... I never made it down too Highlandtown WA or Beaver Creek WA either so can't say how they did down there all three are in Columbiana County....
You can look at my team 3 hunting journal with the hours on stand and deer sightings it has been a dismal season for sightings from years past.... I've hunted this area for close too 5 years with the land owners SOn who lived there as a kid and grew up hunting and trapping the whole property as well as the neighbors.... He's even commented on the numbers the last few years as well.... Last years wasn't as bad but looking back on it it was on the decline.... The neighboring properties are if it's brown it's down type hunters and will fill every tag they have and then some I would imagine..... The two adjoining neighbors are in the same mind set as my buddy and I let the little ones walk take a doe or two and keep the ratio as close as we can..... But with the other neighbors not of the same mindset we're pretty much screwed.... I saw 4 doe opening day of gun... passed on them, saw them on tuesday and passed on them again and wednesday I think I spooked when I went too leave.... Didn't hunt it but an hour friday and an hour Saturday until I gotthe call from the party I joined for the deer drives we were doing.... No deer sightings and very few shots out there all week....
Put on drives thursday, friday, saturday and sunday and we pushed a boat load of land too which 1 Button buck downed which he thought was a doe @ 80 yards.... We had a total 13 deer bumped in all those days of pushing and none were what was called a shooter.... One small basket 6-8 point.... All in all we probably pushed 5 square miles of land, now some of it was broken up by boundries were didn't have permision on but it was open enough if we moved deer into it we would of seen them.... These guy's have been hunting together since 1995 and this is by far the worst year too date since they started..... Their Dad's got them involved and hunted all the land prior and they even said it reminded them of the 70's.....
These guys aren't brown it's down kinda guys, they will take a few doe but there motto is if you ain't going too put it on the wall then don't pull the trigger..... 3 doe were missed by youngsters but no bucks were shot at because none were seen....
Suday stopped by Zeppernick WA and talked too a guy and his son and he had hunted there for 35 years and said it was a very bad year for seeing deer, hardly any shooting as well and he hunted it every day of gun season.... I never made it down too Highlandtown WA or Beaver Creek WA either so can't say how they did down there all three are in Columbiana County....
I really don't see the data of what county a permit was sold in as being very valuable. I bought my permits in Medina County, but yet I hardly even hunt in Medina County... I kill deer in Carroll County, but don't even use the regular permits because I use landowner tags... and I hunt in Morgan, Perry, and Sandusky Counties also. So keeping track of where I bought my permits doesn't accomplish much for the DOW in my opinion. The DOW can more or less keep track of hunter densities in particular counties based on the county given by the hunter when checking in a deer... that is, as long as the hunters are truthful and as long as the deer do indeed get checked in... The latter is, of course, difficult if not impossible to control.
huntn2
Senior Member
Jim it isn't about tracking where you purchased a permit. It is about selling permits to be used in a specific county. So if you want to hunt Carroll County, you buy a permit for Caroll. If you want to hunt Morgan, Perry and Sandusky, well, you have to buy a permit for each that is only valid within each. This allows the ODNR to understand the number of permits that are intendeed to be used for doe by county. Then they can look at the harvest data by county and understand how many doe were killed in Morgan relative to how many permits were sold for doe in Morgan. This in conjunction with estimating the herd for Morgan enables them to set (and manage) the number of doe permits to be available in Morgan year to year.
Unless you compare where they were sold and where they were actually used. If everyone who buys tags in Athens is coming to Washington to kill deer, then we'd need to address that on a micro-level...
Ok, I see what you mean now. However, I think you'd have a lot more pissed off hunters if you told them they have to buy separate tags for the various counties they hunt. For me, instead of buying one buck tag and one doe tag in a year, I'd be buying one of each for all the counties I hunt, resulting in 10 tags instead of 2. You can't really discount the tags because the guy that only hunts behind the neighbor's house wouldn't pay his fair share.
Doesn't work like that.... They issue X amount of tags per county and you would have too apply for those counties too get it.... IMO they should sell one either sex and one antlerless only for statewide... then any additional tags you want (antlerless) then you would have too travel too those counties they target too harvest said deer....
Here's a question for everyone... How much would you be willing to pay for your resident hunting license and each one of your deer tags? Right now, I think $19 and $24, respectively, is a fair price, but I wouldn't want to pay much more. I have a shit load of money wrapped up in tags each year... deer permits, turkey permits, hunting license, fishing license, duck stamps, etc. I know the micro-management idea sounds great, but think of how much more money that would cost to go that route. Yes, your typical wildlife officer has a background in fish and wildlife management, but they are far from being wildlife biologists. You could expect to pay for additional training for them, as well as additional salary because of the higher credentials and job requirements. Then you're probably going to need more at-large wildlife officers in each district to keep up with the enforcement-related issues, since Joe Bloe GW is busy looking for deer instead of following up on complaints. I can only imagine what additional staffing would be required at Fountain Square to bring all this new micro-managed data together. All this.... From an organization that has been making budget and salary cuts like a motherfugger for the past few years and is under even more pressure from Kasich. I tell you what, I think that is asking for a lot.
Here the thing about the tags per county... Say you hunt 3 differant counties, or you just hunt one for that matter then you apply for the counties you usually hunt.... all three or just the one.... Nothing really changes other then you don't automatically get extra tags like you used too.... so if you usually hunt X county they may only issue 5K bonus tags for that county, you apply for 2 you get one based on the numbers that put in for it.... not exactly what you wanted but better then nothing , but if you would of put in for your normal county and the next county over since you may have permision on a plot of land you may get it there as well.... two tags just two differant counties....
I would pay $100 for a license, $50 for a buck tag, and $20 for a doe so long as NR's paid 3-4 times that. How's that for completely opinionated BS!!! LOL!!! :smiley_clap:
In all seriousness, I would pay good money for our tags and license if it meant NR's paid substantially more than they do now; that our GW's were now involved with their local hunters and accurately accessing their local needs/concerns; and an overall impression from Columbus that the common sportsmen matters to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. I'll gladly lay down 4 times the money for 4 times the effort from Columbus. I want to see real value in our herd on all levels and today, we are failing miserably on some counts...
Kaiser....your a prick....only reason you kill deer is because they are pets....and you kill all your waterfowl in Tuscora park..........can I come hunt with you now?
Lol. If it comes down to paying four times what I'm paying now, I think I'll either go to another state or I will just become an outlaw. I don't know what it would cost man, I just think it would cost more that's for sure. I think the micro-management is a good idea. But if it were feasible, from the DOW's standpoint, don't you think they'd already be doing it? I would like to see it done, too, but I don't know if it's possible. The ODNR has been on the ropes financially for several years... folding up programs like DNAP and the like, making budget and salary cuts, etc... Are they going to spend the money to re-structure the deer management program just because the hunters don't feel like they're seeing enough deer when they hunt? I'd like to see it happen as much as the next guy, but for that to happen I think somebody's going to have to pay for it.
huntn2
Senior Member
I ran some analysis to try and help illustrate how things are playing out with numbers with respect to the OH deer herd. Much of my data stems from the ODNR website with regards to harvest statistics by sex (buck vs. doe) by year (the ODNR has published the breakdown of harvest by buck, doe and button buck from 2009-2010 and 2010-2011 that was used in my analysis). In addition to that, because I couldn't find fawn mortality stats for OH, I used a study from the PA Game Commission. That said, I subtracted out the % of fawn mortality that the PA study attributed to black bear due to the lack of black bear population in OH. Lastly I found a study showing that there are approximately 140 fawns born per 100 whitetail deer on average. For the sake of my analysis, I gave OH deer a better success rate and said that every doe would produce 1.5 fawns per year.
The result is as follows:
In 2008 the ODNR estimated the herd at 700,000 deer. Assuming a 50:50 ratio of Buck to Doe at that time, that is 350,000 of each. In 2008, 90,552 bucks were killed, 129,247 doe were killed and 32,217 button bucks were killed. Based on numbers from the ODNR and assuming the 50:50 ratio, that means 227,230 bucks and 220,753 doe remained after deer season. 331,129 fawns would be born in spring of 2009 assuming each of the reaming doe produced 1.5 fawns each. Based on the PA study (less black bear related deaths), fawn mortality would be 41.5% leaving 193,565 surviving fawns. Assuming fawns are born at a ratio of 50:50 buck to doe, 324,013 buck and 317,535 doe were alive for the start of the 2009 season for a total of 641,548 deer.
In 2009, 93,873 bucks were killed, 133,988 doe were killed and 33,399 button bucks were killed. Therefore, after season, 196,740 bucks and 183,548 doe were roaming the state. Again assuming 1.5 fawns per doe meant 275,322 fawns would be born of which only 160,942 would survive (80,471 bucks and doe each). This means 277,211 buck and 264,019 doe would be in the state for the start of the 2010 season for a total of 541,230 deer.
In 2010, 86,046 bucks were killed, 122,815 doe were killed and 30,614 button bucks were killed. Therefore, after season, 160,551 bucks and 141,204 doe were roaming the state. At 1.5 fawns per doe, 211,805 fawns were born of which 123,813 would survive (61,907 bucks and doe each). This means 222,458 bucks and 203,110 doe would be in the state wide herd at the start of the 2011 season for a total of 425,568 deer in the state.
Therefore, as evident in this analysis, 3 seasons can easily take the state wide herd from 700,000 deer to 425,568 deer based on harvest statistics from the ODNR and other supporting studies. That is a 39% reduction in the herd. For doe specifically it is a 42% reduction from 2008 to the start of this season. Perhaps I have some inaccurate assumptions and I am more than happy to re-spin the analysis if anyone has factual information on the Buck to Doe numbers in the herd from 2008. Additionally, if someone has more accurate information on the number of fawns born per doe in OH annually or the fawn mortality % in OH, I can update and re-spin.
I didn't do this analysis assuming it is the word of the lord. I have highlighted my assumptions based on non ODNR studies as well as the factual harvest data from the ODNR. There is room for error in any analysis. That said, the point is simply to demonstrate how easily the herd in the state of Ohio can/could/is being reduced significantly in a very short period of time using information published by the ODNR and PA Game Commission.
The result is as follows:
In 2008 the ODNR estimated the herd at 700,000 deer. Assuming a 50:50 ratio of Buck to Doe at that time, that is 350,000 of each. In 2008, 90,552 bucks were killed, 129,247 doe were killed and 32,217 button bucks were killed. Based on numbers from the ODNR and assuming the 50:50 ratio, that means 227,230 bucks and 220,753 doe remained after deer season. 331,129 fawns would be born in spring of 2009 assuming each of the reaming doe produced 1.5 fawns each. Based on the PA study (less black bear related deaths), fawn mortality would be 41.5% leaving 193,565 surviving fawns. Assuming fawns are born at a ratio of 50:50 buck to doe, 324,013 buck and 317,535 doe were alive for the start of the 2009 season for a total of 641,548 deer.
In 2009, 93,873 bucks were killed, 133,988 doe were killed and 33,399 button bucks were killed. Therefore, after season, 196,740 bucks and 183,548 doe were roaming the state. Again assuming 1.5 fawns per doe meant 275,322 fawns would be born of which only 160,942 would survive (80,471 bucks and doe each). This means 277,211 buck and 264,019 doe would be in the state for the start of the 2010 season for a total of 541,230 deer.
In 2010, 86,046 bucks were killed, 122,815 doe were killed and 30,614 button bucks were killed. Therefore, after season, 160,551 bucks and 141,204 doe were roaming the state. At 1.5 fawns per doe, 211,805 fawns were born of which 123,813 would survive (61,907 bucks and doe each). This means 222,458 bucks and 203,110 doe would be in the state wide herd at the start of the 2011 season for a total of 425,568 deer in the state.
Therefore, as evident in this analysis, 3 seasons can easily take the state wide herd from 700,000 deer to 425,568 deer based on harvest statistics from the ODNR and other supporting studies. That is a 39% reduction in the herd. For doe specifically it is a 42% reduction from 2008 to the start of this season. Perhaps I have some inaccurate assumptions and I am more than happy to re-spin the analysis if anyone has factual information on the Buck to Doe numbers in the herd from 2008. Additionally, if someone has more accurate information on the number of fawns born per doe in OH annually or the fawn mortality % in OH, I can update and re-spin.
I didn't do this analysis assuming it is the word of the lord. I have highlighted my assumptions based on non ODNR studies as well as the factual harvest data from the ODNR. There is room for error in any analysis. That said, the point is simply to demonstrate how easily the herd in the state of Ohio can/could/is being reduced significantly in a very short period of time using information published by the ODNR and PA Game Commission.
