Down

[Lundy]

If there are ten deer in a woodlot, you can kill four of them. If there are five deer in a woodlot, you can still kill four of them. It's not the number killed, but the number that survived that will dictate what is seen the following year.

Barring isolated locations from the equation why would a basically flat total deer havest in 2006 through 2010 leave enough deer in the woodlot to repopulate 2007,2008,2009 but not enough to repopulate in 2010 and 2011?

Your assertion does not allow for the birth rate from the 5 remaining deer in your woodlot. Are the 5 remaining all bucks?

 

[Kaiser878]

there is a whole nother mix in here that we are forgetting...some people hunt 15 acres while others get on 500+.

I would give anything to have a property over 200 acres. I have one at the moment that is even over 100. The rest are 70 or less. The majority being in the 10-40 range.

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

This is a good post.
And there are probably areas where the herd is growing - urban areas. Which draw attention.

Bingo. I'd love to see a study about deer being hit on roads with speed limits under 55mph and those above. The urban deer need to be controlled and that simply is not having. Those density numbers (of herd, of accidents, of complaints) create a great divide with the rest of the state that is not being addressed. We have more urban deer than ever before, but less rural deer. I firmly believe that with the parts of the state that I've seen.

 

[Milo]

I've opened the invitation to u, jesse, Ryan and a couple others. You make it sound like every property I.hunt is loaded with 140+ deer. Do u have a clue how many properties I hunt? Ill tell u this. I had not one shooter on cam until the deer showed up I killed. Still dint have any deer showing up over 140. Ill extend my offer. Ill let you or anyone else come hunt my "honey holes" and if u kill a 140+ ill pay for u to have it mounted. I guarantee u and jd both had more 140+ deer on cam on one property this year than I have had in the last 2 years combined.

Sounds like your seeing less deer:smiley_blackeye:

 

[Jackalope]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. You're doing everything right... extensive management and limiting anterless harvest... yet the deer population is still seemingly declining where you hunt. I understand the properties you hunt are only a small piece of the puzzle, but I've seen deer pile up to seek refuge on much smaller properties than the ones you're hunting. Add to the fact that hardly any hunters in Ohio are killing more than one deer in a season. It just doesn't add up for me. Everyone is saying that they're not seeing deer and hence not killing deer... So if you're not killing them, who is? Where are they going then?

They aren't "going" anywhere... To go somewhere would imply that they exist.. They don't.. They're dead.. Gone.. Dead deer don't reproduce.... How are they going to pile up and seek refuge if they're dead.. How are they going to be enticed to a food plot if they're dead.. It doesn't matter if people only kill 1 deer... Say the population was 8,000 in the county in 2007 and people killed 2,000 deer... And the population is only 4,000 today.. You can STILL kill 2000 deer. The only difference is it takes twice as long... Bobs gonna get his 1 deer if he kills it today, or he waits till shotgun.

 

[Schu72]

Ill extend my offer. Ill let you or anyone else come hunt my "honey holes" and if u kill a 140+ ill pay for u to have it mounted.

If you throw in room and board I'm in! ickle:

Just kidding....trying to lighten the mood.

 

[Kaiser878]

Sounds like your seeing less deer:smiley_blackeye:

Not less, maybe a few less does I suppose. But not many. I have never had more than 1 or 2 "shooters" in a year. So that's nothing new. There never seems to be a shortage of 130-135 bucks. Which rarely return the next year. Halt get turned to Swiss cheese during gun season. Last year was rough. We lost around 4 up and comer 3 yo deer. Next year should be great. Lots of corn still standing now to hide the bucks.

 

[Stump]

I've enjoyed reading these posts.....great debate....an observation I can't help but make is that "all politics are local". What I mean by that is we sometimes can't see the forest for the trees, as an example I hunt a little piece of ground, am I seeing fewer deer...yep over the last couple years there have been fewer deer for me to see, although it is rare that I get skunked as far as sightings. Am I seeing fewer in the area ....yep...so my conclusion is that there are fewer deer, and I do believe that. But just today I'm reading they are having a controlled deer hunt at WPAFB near Dayton and they have had controlled hunts in the Dayton area parks. I'm guessing the powers that be would argue that there is not a declining population. Are either of us wrong...well no...in the micro sense....in the macro sense it may be safe to say neither one of us knows WTF we're talkin bout...
I would like to get an honest answer from the DNR as to what their goal for the deer herd is. I think they have to address it in terms of urban/suburban as well as the general deer herd. They seem to serve different masters on any given day, wheter it be the sportsman, farm groups, insurance industry........BTW I'm sure those aren't listed in proper pecking order...just a few of my disconnected thoughts

 

[brock ratcliff]

Barring isolated locations from the equation why would a basically flat total deer havest in 2006 through 2010 leave enough deer in the woodlot to repopulate 2007,2008,2009 but not enough to repopulate in 2010 and 2011?

Your assertion does not allow for the birth rate from the 5 remaining deer in your woodlot. Are the 5 remaining all bucks?

Interesting thoughts. I don't believe in the area I am most involved (Northern Highland, Fayette, and wester Ross), the fawn recruitment has equaled mortality. Over the last several years, I was fortunate to have several BuckEye Cams running on the main property I hunt (and yes, I understand that what I saw on one property is not a good control for a properly run experiment). However, over the last four years or so, what I saw on the cameras as well as in field observation, I believe we actually have MORE bucks than we do does. As anyone can attest, a population having more males does not lead to over population. Additionally, I feel our fawn recruitment is (or has been) terribly low. What the cameras have shown is the few does we do have are not dragging around many fawns. Last year, I had two adult does as regular visitors to the property with one fawn in tow. In years past, those two does would have generally had a total of four fawns or maybe as many as 6. Personally, I think coyotes are likely the reason they were only packing around one fawn...and again, I base that on pics (I had a camera on a small burr oak in Sept. Every deer in the area visited it regularly as it is the first tree to drop acorns that I am aware of). That camera was highly active for about two weeks. In that time, I had pics of coyotes chasing off deer on three occasions. I see coyotes on nearly every trip to this farm, in fact on a late October hunt last season I saw ten in one morning (two of which I shot)! I won't claim to have all the answers, but what I do feel certain is that our population has been depleted to levels lower than I have seen in 20 years. I do not for a minute believe that it is a good idea to continue promoting the wholesale slaughter of does in THIS area at this time. I also know that given a break, the population will rebound in a matter of a couple of years. I don't however think the ODOW wishes to relax the policies that have lowered the population (extra seasons etc). I really don't think they have a good estimate of what the population actually is in all areas, and I think they are perhaps afraid to allow it to get back to what it was for fear of it getting to a breaking point where they couldn't issue enough tags, or add enough gun days to knock it back down. At any rate, it is what it is.

 

[Jackalope]

I've opened the invitation to u, jesse, Ryan and a couple others. You make it sound like every property I.hunt is loaded with 140+ deer. Do u have a clue how many properties I hunt? Ill tell u this. I had not one shooter on cam until the deer showed up I killed. Still dint have any deer showing up over 140. Ill extend my offer. Ill let you or anyone else come hunt my "honey holes" and if u kill a 140+ ill pay for u to have it mounted. I guarantee u and jd both had more 140+ deer on cam on one property this year than I have had in the last 2 years combined.

Could this have anything to do with the 4-5 you killed last year between you, your buddies, and your dad? And others killed off through normal loss to other hunters. I remember there was a period there where you we're killing a bunch of bucks... I can tell you that If the other 8 people who hunt where I do killed the bucks I have seen this year next year would suck. But as it stands now. They look to have a good shot at making it.

 

[brock ratcliff]

It is fun to see more folks than just me and Joe whining though isnt it Stump?

 

[cotty16]

I'm whining. I ain't afraid to admit it.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Interesting thoughts. I don't believe in the area I am most involved (Northern Highland, Fayette, and wester Ross), the fawn recruitment has equaled mortality. Over the last several years, I was fortunate to have several BuckEye Cams running on the main property I hunt (and yes, I understand that what I saw on one property is not a good control for a properly run experiment). However, over the last four years or so, what I saw on the cameras as well as in field observation, I believe we actually have MORE bucks than we do does. As anyone can attest, a population having more males does not lead to over population. Additionally, I feel our fawn recruitment is (or has been) terribly low. What the cameras have shown is the few does we do have are not dragging around many fawns. Last year, I had two adult does as regular visitors to the property with one fawn in tow. In years past, those two does would have generally had a total of four fawns or maybe as many as 6. Personally, I think coyotes are likely the reason they were only packing around one fawn...and again, I base that on pics (I had a camera on a small burr oak in Sept. Every deer in the area visited it regularly as it is the first tree to drop acorns that I am aware of). That camera was highly active for about two weeks. In that time, I had pics of coyotes chasing off deer on three occasions. I see coyotes on nearly every trip to this farm, in fact on a late October hunt last season I saw ten in one morning (two of which I shot)! I won't claim to have all the answers, but what I do feel certain is that our population has been depleted to levels lower than I have seen in 20 years. I do not for a minute believe that it is a good idea to continue promoting the wholesale slaughter of does in THIS area at this time. I also know that given a break, the population will rebound in a matter of a couple of years. I don't however think the ODOW wishes to relax the policies that have lowered the population (extra seasons etc). I really don't think they have a good estimate of what the population actually is in all areas, and I think they are perhaps afraid to allow it to get back to what it was for fear of it getting to a breaking point where they couldn't issue enough tags, or add enough gun days to knock it back down. At any rate, it is what it is.

Our sightings almost mirror one another. Up to this point, I have been arguing based solely on my hunting experiences in the past few years. I am in the process of reviewing thousands of trail cam pics from the past 6 years and I noticed a sharp decline in fawn pictures starting in 2009. This year was the worst year for fawn pictures and I only had one set of twins this year out of 3 regular adult does. The first full year with cameras at the farm (2007), I had what I determined was 4 different adult does that had twins and one 1.5 old doe with a single fawn. To my knowledge, the 140+ acres I control right now has only surrendered 4 bucks to hunters since 2006, and for sure one giant to the road. As the bucks begin to stockpile (this year I have 11 different bucks on camera) and the does dwindle, our herd ratio has become lopsided IMO. Simply based on what I have seen in 2010 and 2011 on the cams, I have more bucks than does on 140 acres...

 

[Jackalope]

Interesting thoughts. I don't believe in the area I am most involved (Northern Highland, Fayette, and wester Ross), the fawn recruitment has equaled mortality. Over the last several years, I was fortunate to have several BuckEye Cams running on the main property I hunt (and yes, I understand that what I saw on one property is not a good control for a properly run experiment). However, over the last four years or so, what I saw on the cameras as well as in field observation, I believe we actually have MORE bucks than we do does. As anyone can attest, a population having more males does not lead to over population. Additionally, I feel our fawn recruitment is (or has been) terribly low. What the cameras have shown is the few does we do have are not dragging around many fawns. Last year, I had two adult does as regular visitors to the property with one fawn in tow. In years past, those two does would have generally had a total of four fawns or maybe as many as 6. Personally, I think coyotes are likely the reason they were only packing around one fawn...and again, I base that on pics (I had a camera on a small burr oak in Sept. Every deer in the area visited it regularly as it is the first tree to drop acorns that I am aware of). That camera was highly active for about two weeks. In that time, I had pics of coyotes chasing off deer on three occasions. I see coyotes on nearly every trip to this farm, in fact on a late October hunt last season I saw ten in one morning (two of which I shot)! I won't claim to have all the answers, but what I do feel certain is that our population has been depleted to levels lower than I have seen in 20 years. I do not for a minute believe that it is a good idea to continue promoting the wholesale slaughter of does in THIS area at this time. I also know that given a break, the population will rebound in a matter of a couple of years. I don't however think the ODOW wishes to relax the policies that have lowered the population (extra seasons etc). I really don't think they have a good estimate of what the population actually is in all areas, and I think they are perhaps afraid to allow it to get back to what it was for fear of it getting to a breaking point where they couldn't issue enough tags, or add enough gun days to knock it back down. At any rate, it is what it is.

Seeing the same thing in VC.. I've said from the beginning that we still had our bucks, but the does have disappeared..

Even on the property I hunt with JD, From July through November when I pulled my cams I can guarantee I had more bucks on cam than does.... Sightings from a stand confirmed this also.. 129 hours of observation in 2 months... Always saw more bucks than does.. One evening I had 9 deer that we're spikes, forks, and basket racks walk by, i saw one doe the whole hunt.

 

[Beentown]

First off..I don't have a me complex. I have made an open invite to several people.from this forum to come hunt. Stuck on myself I am not. You show me a post where I have bragged about any of my deer and how great I am and ill admit I'm wrong.

Prick? Ya I can be. And sitting around a campfire would change none of my words. Ill tell it to you in person just as I would over a computer. I'mnot shy nor am intimidated by u or anyone on here. Id be glad to have this conversation one on one in person. I've never met you. You have never met me. Nor do I care if I ever do. You withhold nothing of any importance or.value to me. Your just the typical internet hunter.

I don't want praise for my deer. I don't kill deer for other people. Just me. I have a personal goal every year. Shooting button bucks and young deer isnt one of them. I wasn't even going to post my.buck on here until there were several requests. This internet site and all the others could close up and my desire o hunt deer wouldn't dwindle a bit.

PM incoming...

 

[jagermeister]

They aren't "going" anywhere... To go somewhere would imply that they exist.. They don't.. They're dead.. Gone.. Dead deer don't reproduce.... How are they going to pile up and seek refuge if they're dead.. How are they going to be enticed to a food plot if they're dead.. It doesn't matter if people only kill 1 deer... Say the population was 8,000 in the county in 2007 and people killed 2,000 deer... And the population is only 4,000 today.. You can STILL kill 2000 deer. The only difference is it takes twice as long... Bobs gonna get his 1 deer if he kills it today, or he waits till shotgun.

I just don't understand how you come up with these examples and completely fail to consider reproduction. You act like the remaining "un-dead" deer population is just a static number that will never increase, but instead just decrease year after year. Deer are extremely adaptable and successful at reproducing... Hence the population boom since they were nearly extinct in Ohio in the early 1900s. What I'm saying is I don't think a decrease in the population can be solely attributed to hunting and extra tags and extra time in the woods. If the population is falling off a cliff as fast as everyone here thinks it is, there HAS to be other causes. That is, unless the estimated statewide population is WAY off... But until someone proves that to me I'm not going to believe that it is. You know a population of 750,000 is only an average of 28 deer per 1000 acres in Ohio? IMO, that's not a very far-fetched density.

 

[Jackalope]

It is fun to see more folks than just me and Joe whining though isnt it Stump?

Seems like every year there are more and more. First year we brought it up there we're only 3 of us... lol..... My how things have changed..... Had a guy join the site yesterday and his first post was a tirade about how he's seeing less deer and thought nuisance permits we're to blame...

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

Should we increase buck tags for a year?

 

[bowhunter1023]

I'm whining. I ain't afraid to admit it.

In a way, so I am Mike. I don't have the 1970's frame of reference that Chad brings up in these discussions. I've heard all the stories and understand it was a different time, but I didn't live it. What I have lived, was the climb from 1990 to the peak (which I view as 2005-2007 based on total sightings and encounters with shooters) to the recent decline beginning in 2009 for my county. I miss the "good old days" when I would hit the treestand knowing I would see deer, rarely getting skunked. It was a pleasure to simply watch deer and that is something I experienced very little this season. I don't have to kill a lot of deer to be happy with my experience in the woods. I simply want to go hunting and see deer 9 out of 10 times. It is the way things used to be in the mid-2000's in my area and that is the kind of hunting I grew to love. Call it selfish, lazy, whatever you will, but it's what I enjoyed...

 

[cotty16]

In a way, so I am Mike. I don't have the 1970's frame of reference that Chad brings up in these discussions. I've heard all the stories and understand it was a different time, but I didn't live it. What I have lived, was the climb from 1990 to the peak (which I view as 2005-2007 based on total sightings and encounters with shooters) to the recent decline beginning in 2009 for my county. I miss the "good old days" when I would hit the treestand knowing I would see deer, rarely getting skunked. It was a pleasure to simply watch deer and that is something I experienced very little this season. I don't have to kill a lot of deer to be happy with my experience in the woods. I simply want to go hunting and see deer 9 out of 10 times. It is the way things used to be in the mid-2000's in my area and that is the kind of hunting I grew to love. Call it selfish, lazy, whatever you will, but it's what I enjoyed...

BINGO!
I heard the horror stories about the 70's from my dad.