So what happened from 1999 -2009? If you kill more than 35% of the total population, the herd goes backwards. Can you explain again how our federal government orchestrated 9/11?
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Article: Deer Vehicle accidents the past 8 years.. Shocking
- Thread starter Jackalope
- Start date
So what happened from 1999 -2009? If you kill more than 35% of the total population, the herd goes backwards. Can you explain again how our federal government orchestrated 9/11?
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Starting in 98 or 99, Sunday hunting was implemented. The way it came to be was a gradual legalization. The restrictions on what land could be hunted went from relatively strict to open to all eventually in 2002. That was a huge addition to days afield for the majority of Ohio's hunters. I would suspect that was the beginning of serious herd reduction. And by that I mean the percentage left after season. I would suspect the herd actually stopped growing around that time, and has since declined. Comaparing numbers from the 90's and today, again, is apples and oranges IMO.
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Mike, if Tonk admittedly doesn't have a good estimate on how many deer we have, how does he know we need to reduce the herd? What indicators lead him to that conclusion?
Farmer surveys.
For 10 years the kill went up and at the same time, total population went down? If your objective was to shut me up, you've succeeded.:smiley_confused_vra
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Ha! You and I both know that is not an achievable goal!
And yes, that is my theory. And is the "point that is hard to make". By expanding time afield, (addition of Sunday hunting, adding three weekend days to shotgun season, muzzle loaders that actually go off when the trigger is pulled - 200+ yard accuracy vs.100, huge increase in archery participants, having muzzle loader season scheduled between Christmas and New Years for several years vs 3 days in the middle of the week in mid-January).
It used to be that people would take vacation for the 6 days of shotgun season, now most do not, because they will still get their deer (even the part timers that only gun hunt and want a "freezer deer") in the bonus weekend, or the front-loaded high power rifle season. The guy that couldn't get off work, and would only hunt on Saturday of gun season used to kill a deer every three or four years now kills one every year.
If there are ten deer on a property, you can kill four. Given enough time, if there are only 6 deer on a property, you can still kill four. A simple concept to me.
........and what if the deer herd numbers were actually:
07- 550,000
08- 500,000
09- 475,000
10- 400,000
Instead of 750,000 all four years!
That would also help explain why deer vehicle collisions have declined so much.
07- 550,000
08- 500,000
09- 475,000
10- 400,000
Instead of 750,000 all four years!
That would also help explain why deer vehicle collisions have declined so much.
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Are these the same farmers that don't know the difference between Coon damage and deer damage? The same farmers that blame turkeys for the primary damage to beans? When the university of Purdue found that most damage to beans and corn come from groundhogs and coons, deer actually do very minimal yield damage compared to them. I mean shouldn't this be something a biologist should know and shouldn't need to rely farmers to tell him the wrong answer.
So far i have heard say... "Harvest numbers are used to guess population estimates" Then they we're asked why they aren't using the DVA numbers that show a huge decline, but their estimated numbers have remained the same for years.. "We do use them" they say.. Yet I can show you where the 750,000 number has been used the past 4 years.. And I can show you from 2005 where they said how they calculate numbers. Yet the data doesn't support their claims yet again.... soooooooooo now we're to "We're not publicly releasing numbers anymore because it's bad data, instead we use farmer surveys..""" Jeez...Sure is a lot of juking and jiving... lol
Tree my dog.
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Here is a farmer story; Bill Rowe is a good friend of mine (Maurice's son, Mike). He is one of the most all-around knowledgeable people I know - the man can fix anything, fabricate whatever he needs to do so, and try to explain everything he's into to those of us less brilliant standing in his arena. The family has long been more than hunter friendly, and conservation minded. They palnted 10,000 hardwood trees on fomerly pastured land, planted a 60 foot wide patch of clover around the entire permieter of their farm fields, and have set aside huge portions of their farm for wildlife habitat. I have shot a number of deer and turkeys from his property in years past, as have many others...they used to let anyone that asked hunt. Anyway, this summer while Mason, Bill and I were fly fishing one of his ponds, we watched 13 deer feeding in one of his bean fields. Bill knows my concerns about deer numbers, and doesn't agree. He thinks we have plenty due to seeing so many in his field. I explained that the entire adjoining Paint Creek WA was flooded until mid June and none of the bottom lands had been planted. He essentially had the only bean field for miles, and in August was basically feeding every deer around. He replied that maybe I was right, we'd see how hunting season turned out. There was one 6 point buck shot during gun season, and a doe during bow season. I just saw him in town, and nothing was shot with a muzzleloader. He thinks I may be right about the population. BTW, this is the same farm Joe, myself, and a bunch of others "drove" last season without seeing a deer from sun-up to an hour before dark. We did see three antlerless deer on an adjacent property just before dark.... Point being, farmers aren't all in-tune with the animals on their land, and are likely a less reliable source (and perhaps biased) than they could be.
bthompson1004
Member
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I should add Bill has again allowed a ton of people onto his farm. On Wednesday of gun season I drove by at mid-day. There were 6 trucks parked that I could see, no idea how many occupants in each. It isn't like participation has slowed. He also said the hunters were telling him they weren't seeing many deer and blamed the dense set aside for it...although it is the same set-aside that has been there for ten years or so.
Great post Brock!
Again, those guys like Mike and JD prolly aren't seeing the point we're trying to make because maybe their areas aren't like the areas most hunters are experiencing. They prolly have more refuge or santuary areas and are managed better as far as less over kill. ???
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Yep.. That day sucked! lol... We had what 8 guys.. We sat in the morning until about 9.. 1 guy shot a deer drove off public. I missed 1 and then we did drives ALLLLLL Day.. I don't even think we stopped for lunch.. Didn't run out a single deer from any place we drove.. Then found a mom and two yearlings hiding in a small patch across the road. That was like 9 hours of hunting, 7 hours of driving and we saw 5 deer all day.. And man we covered some ground that day.
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I would guess if a person had a couple hundred acres, providing enough food and cover and lack of hunting pressure, you would still see good numbers of deer. Additionally, I think in an area like Athens (with miles of cover), you would be hard pressed to kill a large population down enough to really notice a difference...by that I mean go for days without seeing a deer where you were accustomed to seeing several.
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I forgot about you missing one! BTW, that stand was on a ridge that used to by one of my go-to kill spots when I wanted to bloody an arrow. I wouldn't waste my time walking back there today. That is a wicked little funnel though isn't it? Too bad nothing is coming though it anymore!
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Yes it is.. I had high hopes when I climbed in.. I had enough people out on public land driving that I was sure something would come through.. Sat and sat and sat and one doe decided to use the funnel hauling ass.
Ohiosam
*Supporting Member*
Tell Tonk to get off his lazy ass and go in the woods.
:smiley_crocodile:
Nice looking Walker dog. I see he knows how to fall off a deer track and get treed.
Are these the same farmers that don't know the difference between Coon damage and deer damage? The same farmers that blame turkeys for the primary damage to beans? When the university of Purdue found that most damage to beans and corn come from groundhogs and coons, deer actually do very minimal yield damage compared to them. I mean shouldn't this be something a biologist should know and shouldn't need to rely farmers to tell him the wrong answer.
So far i have heard say... "Harvest numbers are used to guess population estimates" Then they we're asked why they aren't using the DVA numbers that show a huge decline, but their estimated numbers have remained the same for years.. "We do use them" they say.. Yet I can show you where the 750,000 number has been used the past 4 years.. And I can show you from 2005 where they said how they calculate numbers. Yet the data doesn't support their claims yet again.... soooooooooo now we're to "We're not publicly releasing numbers anymore because it's bad data, instead we use farmer surveys..""" Jeez...Sure is a lot of juking and jiving... lol
Tree my dog.
Nice looking Walker dog. I see he knows how to fall off a deer track and get treed.
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That dogs the best tree dog I've ever thrown out a box. Sum bitch gets In the woods and trees the meat. Ain't no screwing around either. Better have your gloves and light ready cause he'll strike within 5 minutes and close. I need to find a good bitch to put him with. Maybe once a year hell fall off on a fox in the summer. Nothing a dog chain don't fix for a year. And he won't hunt on a full moon for some reason.
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Earlier Tonk was quoted as using harvest numbers to estimate herd size. My local WOs have said for 2 years in a row crop damage complaints are down. I'm sick and tired off everyone blaming farmers(remember those guys who let many of you hunt) and now even the ODNR is doing it!!
Tell Tonk to get off his lazy ass and go in the woods.
That's all he has left man. He said he uses DVA numbers but those have been show to decline during the same time he was increasing tags and seasons.
He just admitted that his own population estimates were crap and were not accurate.
Harvest numbers are crap and nobody in their right mind would rely on them as there is the possibility you could kill more deer with a declining population..
So it looks like you're all that's left... Don't worry. Come spring I'll have all the farmer surveys and well see what the story really says.
I have always liked a blanket backed Walker dog. What is his breeding? I haven't had coon dogs since I had to put my Grand Nite female down. She qualified for the World hunt two years in a row, but I never hunted her in it. I had a litter of pups out of her and Southern Pride that produced some big mouthed, hard tree dogs. When the kids started coming I gave away her son to my cousin down in Morrow county and he used him to train pups.