No mans land

[Jackalope]

Joe, the photo your placed up where you drew out the paddle aka the shoulder blade I think gave me another possibility. Arrow enters behind the diaphragm and somehow misses stomach and liver, due to the angle it goes through either missing the lungs (possibly in between them based on the angle) and vessels or putting a minimal to nonexistent hole in the lungs only. The arrow continues on and impacts and stops either in ribs on the other side or the shoulder blade on the other side or in the part of the spine that Gordo is showing us in his picture. Just short of a pass through but far enough that there are no cutting edges to move causing further damage. Having the holes in the diaphragm and +/- the lungs placed that way would not cause the "sucking chest wound' you described in your other post that causes a collapse of the lung(s) and eventual death. The arrow and the bleeding from the diaphragm tissue could potentially close off the wound enough to not cause problems.

Brock, the doe you finished with a knife that had holes in the tops of both lungs could be explained by a fairly complex physiologic explanation. Basically, the top portions of your lungs get more air then blood supply. The middle section of your lungs get an equal amount of air and blood supply and the bottoms of your lungs get more blood and not as much air. This is all when you take a breath. So....in theory (and this is purely physiologic theory which does work but not perfectly) you could put a hole in the top of the deer's lungs and it would not bleed much if at all b/c that area does not get much if any blood supply.

I could go into more depth but I don't want to dive too deeply and the underlying ideas are La'Places rule of compliance along with the pressures of blood flow through the pulmonary vasculature.

I would concede that is a very real possibility. The arrow looks to have impacted approximately where the diaphragm connects to the interior chest wall. If the angle was correct it could miss the liver, puncture the diaphragm, go behind the nearside lung and only puncture the upper lobe of the offside lung. Single lung hits especially high ones are usually non fatal in and of themselves. However complications can cause death later. But many many deer have lived after single lung hits. Especially high in the lobe where there isn't much circulatory flow.



But. Either way. It's no mans land up there, be it you nick the lungs or miss them. Odds are the is a good chance they can walk away.

 

[Carpn]

IMO I don't think that arrow made it thru the rib cage and punched lung . While I guess its possible the arrow is inside the chest cavity the muscle and bone structure of the shoulder must have sealed the hole allowing the chest to operate as it should . Diaphragm contracts pulling vacuum inside the chest filling lungs with air , diaphragm relaxes and expels air . I might have the contract and relax backwards but the principles the same. Lungs fill from vacuum . With a hole in their chest they can't breathe. I have killed deer before by hitting them low in the chest and missing vital organs , but the sucking chest wound killed em . I've also hit deer high , above the spin and lost them . I personally don't think ya can put a arrow under the spine and above the lungs . Even if ya do hit em just under the spine there is a artery there that kills em fast .
I definitely agree with Brock on shot placement. Get away from the crease and shoot middle of the ribs . A lot more room for error and it kills em quick .

 

[Mike]

Is it possible that the arrow is between the ribs and lungs? It look plausible to me, but I'm far from an expert.

 

[RedCloud]

Is it possible that the arrow is between the ribs and lungs? It look plausible to me, but I'm far from an expert.
View attachment 18814

I would agree with this. Being shot from the ground at a hard quartering away angle I think it did slip in behind the ribcage without hitting the lung or if it did it just grazed it. Looks like it is either the last rib or maybe 3 from the back of the ribcage. If the deer walks thru brush or bumps it the BH just hits the inside of the ribcage and doesn't poke into the lungs. I'm sure it hurts like hell but not deadly unless he walks back a few steps into something and shoves the arrow further into the chest cavity and changes the angle of the arrow at the same time.

I have no doubt about no mans land but I don't think this one is a good example of that.

 

[Flatlander]

I agree with Redcloud, no mans land does exist but this is not a good example.

I shot a buck last year in "no mans land" just above the spine, passed through with good blood then nothing. I was sure the buck was dead and a group of us searched for 2 days before giving up. Later that year I found his sheds and confirmed he was still alive. This is why I try to keep my shots lower in the cage but on this occasion the buck froze up on me just before he walked into the opening and held me at full draw for a good 4 to 5 minutes. As hunters we try to avoid mistakes but they do happen for various reasons. If you bowhunters long enough it's bound to happen, all we can do is learn from it.

 

[Jamie]

no mans land not above spine, it's below. you shot that buck through the backstraps if you hit him above spine. that hit can produce a good blood trial for about 100-200 yards then dry up very quickly.

 

[Lundy]

I do not believe that there is a "no man's land" that exists below the spine and above the lungs.

However it does serve as a convenient explanation used by hunters when they fail to harvest the deer they shot at

 

[brock ratcliff]

Perhaps there is not a "no man's land". There are however places that appear to be perfect shot placements that result in deer not recovered. I've seen it first hand, and anyone that cares to click on the link Joe posted can see it on video. It isn't theory, or an excuse. It happens, and when it happens to you, its nearly enough to remove all faith in archery tackle. I've never had a deer shot through the middle of the ribcage travel or live long. I can't say the same for deer shot in the triangle.

 

[Lundy]

Perhaps there is not a "no man's land". There are however places that appear to be perfect shot placements that result in deer not recovered. I've seen it first hand, and anyone that cares to click on the link Joe posted can see it on video. It isn't theory, or an excuse. It happens, and when it happens to you, its nearly enough to remove all faith in archery tackle. I've never had a deer shot through the middle of the ribcage travel or live long. I can't say the same for deer shot in the triangle.

Deer are tough animals, some seem to be tougher than others and occasionally a few just defy what we know to be true.

Why some deer don't die from some the shot placements is open to a bunch of speculation and reasoning, some may have no plausible explanation. Others could maybe be rationalized and explained through angles, broad head performance, who knows.

Many years ago my nephew visited from Texas to bowhunt with me. He killed his first buck ever with a bow the first morning, he shot it in the back leg and it didn't make it 30 yds. I complimented him on being such a skilled bowhunter and bow shooter. He asked me why, I told him most bowhunters would just shoot the deer through that great big heart lung area, it takes a special skillset to kill a deer by shooting at the femoral artery.

While there can and seem to be exceptions to every rule as a general outcome you can't push a broad head through a deer in the chest cavity, below the spine, without it dying, and dying pretty quickly.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Generally, an arrow through most any part of the chest cavity doesn't make it far... Not always, however. Each of the two I've witnessed, however, were hit in essentially the same place as the deer in the posted video. Most 3D targets show that spot as an 11, and most bowhunters naturally gravitate to that exact aiming point...it can be bad news in a hurry, imo. The doe I shot was nearly perfectly broadside and passed through. The buck my buddy shot was quartered away slightly and the arrow stuck in the off-side shoulder. Call me crazy, but I'll continue to try putting arrows back a bit into the middle of the ribcage.

 

[Gordo]

I personally don't think ya can put a arrow under the spine and above the lungs.

I agree. Because its FUGGIN IMPOSSIBLE! lol.

Had to re-iterate

 

[Gordo]

Generally, an arrow through most any part of the chest cavity doesn't make it far... Not always, however. Each of the two I've witnessed, however, were hit in essentially the same place as the deer in the posted video. Most 3D targets show that spot as an 11, and most bowhunters naturally gravitate to that exact aiming point...it can be bad news in a hurry, imo. The doe I shot was nearly perfectly broadside and passed through. The buck my buddy shot was quartered away slightly and the arrow stuck in the off-side shoulder. Call me crazy, but I'll continue to try putting arrows back a bit into the middle of the ribcage.

Sounds like a good things for us all to remember. Good Stuff

 

[Jackalope]

I agree. Because its FUGGIN IMPOSSIBLE! lol.

Had to re-iterate

Again. It's not. You can shoot a deer right below the spine and it can live. Happens all the time. Now. Does it go above the lungs or through the upper lobe of the lungs? It really doesn't matter. The deer lived. Above the lungs, nick the lungs. Top lobe of the lungs. Doesn't really matter. Deer have and will continue to live after being shot there. There is an area just below the spine that if you shoot a deer they have a good probability of living. Call it no mans land. Call it bad luck. It happens. Often.

 

[Jackalope]

Is it possible that the arrow is between the ribs and lungs? It look plausible to me, but I'm far from an expert.
View attachment 18814

Not really. The angle would have to be much steeper. As your line shows it's angled more towards the offside shoulder. I printed the picture and measured the arrow using the 2 inch blazer for scale. And again using the 4 inch wrap. I came up with 14 inches of arrow outside the deer. Meaning even if it was a 24 inch woman or kids arrow there is still 10 inches in the deer.

 

[Gordo]

If it hits the top of the lungs, it hits the lungs. Thats all i was saying. Life or death with a clipped upper lung lobe varies.

Its amazing how tough of animals they are. I always try to explain that to people when talking about bow hunting. Most folks think u just go out there and 'shoot one'. You all know what i mean.

 

[moundhill]

I personally am not educated in this no mans land theory. But I have heard that you can shoot one in the blackstrap below the spine and it can live. My dad did it once and if I remember right I think Taylor did a few years back. He may chime in.

 

[matthewusmc8791]

It is possible that the arrow could have hit the rib cage and continued outside the ribs therefore missing anything vital. Just bad luck, 1/2 inch inside and it deflects to the lungs, 1/2 inch outside and it deflects to the shoulder. That's why you need a broadside shot or when quartering away you need to stay back to play the angle.

Couldn't agree more. As bow hunters we've all had some difficult shots to consider.. I feel as I get older its easier for me to pass on a deer especially if I don't feel its going to kill the deer as quickly as possible. I see more and more each day when I'm talking to new hunters that its more about stabbing another deer with an arrow then the hunt. I feel I can blame it on a lot of things; hunting TV shows and technology of fast bows, etc. It implies that making it sound ok to try and shoot a deer at 50+ yards and not expect it to duck. I think less deer would be lost if we stuck with that 40yd rule. JMTC

 

[Carpn]

I think the no mans land excuse is way overused. I'd bet half the deer hit and blamed on no mans land are hit above the spine . The others half are probably the back of the shoulder. Heck, ya can hit a deer 6-8" below the backline and by the time ya account for hair , hide , meat , and the ridges off the top of the vertebra your still above the actual spine

 

[Mike]

Not really. The angle would have to be much steeper. As your line shows it's angled more towards the offside shoulder. I printed the picture and measured the arrow using the 2 inch blazer for scale. And again using the 4 inch wrap. I came up with 14 inches of arrow outside the deer. Meaning even if it was a 24 inch woman or kids arrow there is still 10 inches in the deer.

I did the same thing after posting that. I came up nearly the same length inside. I just thought the angle looked a little steeper.

 

[RedCloud]

You shoot a deer with an arrow from level ground here and it will live. That's "No Mans Land" and the bigger the animal the bigger that area gets.