Store owner is #1 in charge of the candy. He can keep telling the kids there is plenty. Or he can make the jars opening much smaller to regulate the supply.
Deer Management Stakeholder Organization.
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Store owner is #1 in charge of the candy. He can keep telling the kids there is plenty. Or he can make the jars opening much smaller to regulate the supply.
Hortontoter
Senior Member
Its a shame that adult hunters were no smarter than the kids in the candy store. Many adult hunters saw the herd in decline and kept whacking and stacking. I still contend that just because one can, doesn't mean one should.
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It is a shame that such a thing is impossible on a scale that would matter. But thats reality. Which is the exact reason we have posted speed limits and places like the Department of Transportation to manage it. Without them lots of people would drive as fast as their car would go.
I think it's a man ego thing. Makes the average hunter feel good to harvest a deer. Then it gives them bragging rights to the non hunting individuals.
It's been said before that the average hunter who address themselves on the TOO forums and other hunting forums are several steps higher on the ladder than the average hunter who wants to just harvest a deer.
For over 40 years I was on the lower ladder rung and shot the 1st deer I seen but never took more than was legal. The last 10 years or so I feel I've came up the ladder several rungs and no longer am a meat hunter. Now on most days I pass on more deer in one day than I would have seen the whole season near or far away.
This making any real sense to why some hunters shoot deer when the numbers are going down? But we must remember that the average deer hunter only sees their small little area and not the whole state picture. So He may not know what's really going on. Remember he only wants to harvest a deer for his bragging rights. Then if he's really lucky his gets a real trophy buck and now he has become a real king shit in bragging to the non hunter group.
CritterGitterToo
Junior Member
My uncle works with a guy that will work tirelessly to fill every tag, even when he admitted he was seeing many. He was hell bent to "get his limit."
Also, I worked on a walleye charter for years. Didn't matter if the limit was 4, 6 or 10 guys wanted to get their limit. When the population was down and limits were harder to come by, they didn't care. They still wanted a limit.
DOW understands this mentality for most of Ohios outdoorsmen. That's why it worked especially early on when they made those cheap antlerless only tags available during gun law.
Also, I worked on a walleye charter for years. Didn't matter if the limit was 4, 6 or 10 guys wanted to get their limit. When the population was down and limits were harder to come by, they didn't care. They still wanted a limit.
DOW understands this mentality for most of Ohios outdoorsmen. That's why it worked especially early on when they made those cheap antlerless only tags available during gun law.
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And you would be absolutely correct, this along with what Crittergitter pointed out are the largest factors in preventing hunters from self-managing at a meaningful level. It would be wonderful if we could, but the reality is it's impractical and virtually impossible.
Forever hunters have been told that we are the greatest conservationist. And to an extent we are, but it is not specifically us, rather our money and passion for wildlife. As hunters if left to our own devices without management we would exterminate populations of animals. We have done it before, and as this reduction program demonstrates we are still fully capable of doing it again without ever seeing the facts of what we're doing. It is for this very reason that we created a Department of Wildlife, unfortunately the Department of Wildlife acted in a manner contrary to our own interest. My problem has always been the deceiving manner in which they went about doing it. Hunters had absolutely no say and the Department of Wildlife tried very hard to keep the extent of their agenda from us until it was too late. They did this because they needed to use us and they knew we would not agree with it. And worse yet they did it to increase the profits of a private Corporation. I would think that no matter where someone stood on the population aspect those actions would burn their ass as a sportsman.
Forever hunters have been told that we are the greatest conservationist. And to an extent we are, but it is not specifically us, rather our money and passion for wildlife. As hunters if left to our own devices without management we would exterminate populations of animals. We have done it before, and as this reduction program demonstrates we are still fully capable of doing it again without ever seeing the facts of what we're doing. It is for this very reason that we created a Department of Wildlife, unfortunately the Department of Wildlife acted in a manner contrary to our own interest. My problem has always been the deceiving manner in which they went about doing it. Hunters had absolutely no say and the Department of Wildlife tried very hard to keep the extent of their agenda from us until it was too late. They did this because they needed to use us and they knew we would not agree with it. And worse yet they did it to increase the profits of a private Corporation. I would think that no matter where someone stood on the population aspect those actions would burn their ass as a sportsman.
Lundy
Member
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Respectfully disagree, the king shit bragging is to the hunting group. Been there, done that, watched it, heard it, read it every year.
If someone kills a 130" buck or a 180" buck doesn't make a bit a difference to a non hunter, they wouldn't have a clue about the difference. But to another hunter..................
Ask a hunter if he killed a deer this year and he may say Yeah, but it was just a small buck or yes, I killed a doe, but she was a big doe
Contests - more points for bucks and extra reward for antler size, Hunting shows, magazines, books, it all directed towards big bucks. Ever see a grunt tube, scent,feed blocks, minerals, seed, with a picture of a little buck on the package
None of that is not directed towards the non hunting public.Deer hunting is for many very much about personal prowess expressed through accomplishment that they hope is admired by their peers. It just is what it is and I understand it, I was there for a bunch of years as young man myself. I know once I learned to set that aside to hunt for myself I enjoyed hunting a lot more, but to each his own.
Respectfully disagree, the king shit bragging is to the hunting group. Been there, done that, watched it, heard it, read it every year.
If someone kills a 130" buck or a 180" buck doesn't make a bit a difference to a non hunter, they wouldn't have a clue about the difference. But to another hunter..................
Ask a hunter if he killed a deer this year and he may say Yeah, but it was just a small buck or yes, I killed a doe, but she was a big doe
Contests - more points for bucks and extra reward for antler size, Hunting shows, magazines, books, it all directed towards big bucks. Ever see a grunt tube, scent,feed blocks, minerals, seed, with a picture of a little buck on the package
Deer hunting is for many very much about personal prowess expressed through accomplishment that they hope is admired by their peers. It just is what it is and I understand it, I was there for a bunch of years as young man myself. I know once I learned to set that aside to hunt for myself I enjoyed hunting a lot more, but to each his own.
Yes
Lundy
Member
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The reality is that no matter how the candy jar was depleted doesn't matter at all. Rehashing the history with woulda, coulda, shoulda, won't change that reality.
The problem is that you have a very small vocal group of hunters that want the candy level restored to the previous levels. You have a store owner that likes the candy level where it is and will never willingly go back to previous candy levels. The vast majority of the candy eating kids are not vocal, involved, informed or even care about the candy levels..
So how do the small number of vocal, active, informed candy eating kids get the owner to put more candy back in the jar? Evidence might suggest that it is not by attacking the store owner as that tactic has realized no positive results over the last few years. It might be prudent to quit litigating the past and try an develop a plan for the future to convince the store owner to put just a little more candy in the jar.
The problem is that you have a very small vocal group of hunters that want the candy level restored to the previous levels. You have a store owner that likes the candy level where it is and will never willingly go back to previous candy levels. The vast majority of the candy eating kids are not vocal, involved, informed or even care about the candy levels..
So how do the small number of vocal, active, informed candy eating kids get the owner to put more candy back in the jar? Evidence might suggest that it is not by attacking the store owner as that tactic has realized no positive results over the last few years. It might be prudent to quit litigating the past and try an develop a plan for the future to convince the store owner to put just a little more candy in the jar.
Iowa_Buckeye
Smartest person here
So for those who think the DOW is doing a crappy job, what is your definition of success?
Is it just seeing a deer or several deer per hunt? Putting your time in and tagging a deer during the season? Or is success tagging 2, 3, 4+ deer?
I guess a deer population being viewed as low depends on everyone's individual goals. Do you feel there ever can be too many deer?
I've lived out of the state for quite a while, but there is a higher population there now than there was when I left ('94). And it was pretty good hunting back then (per my goals). It can't be that bad now, or is it????
Is it just seeing a deer or several deer per hunt? Putting your time in and tagging a deer during the season? Or is success tagging 2, 3, 4+ deer?
I guess a deer population being viewed as low depends on everyone's individual goals. Do you feel there ever can be too many deer?
I've lived out of the state for quite a while, but there is a higher population there now than there was when I left ('94). And it was pretty good hunting back then (per my goals). It can't be that bad now, or is it????
I want to feel like they are doing the right thing with the resources, for the resources. I currently feel like they care more about themselves then the resource. What I feel should happen and what the farmers feel should happen, shouldn't have any impact on what happens. Like it or not, this should be about the resource and protecting it the best we can.
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In the county I hunt most, we killed 600 deer in 1995. With greatly expanded opportunity, far better equipment, we kill half that number today. There are far fewer deer in that county, no question.
Some very good points and analogies. I likewise believe that most people on these sites are much more passionate about their deer hunting and the best ways to benefit the resource.........So my thousand dollar question is why do all the contests encourage the taking of two deer? Every contest I've been in over the past 10-15 years was set up this way whether it was an Ohio site or a national site.
Good point. In regards to the TOO Deer Contest I'd say it is because the grand prize is. . . . Nothing. Just another 5 points on the contest. Maybe it is time for discussion about it. Or we leave it the way it is. The guy who is going to shoot two deer will still shoot two deer. The guy who is buck only will still only shoot a buck. I find it hard to believe a guy will buy a tag and shoot another deer just for a contest with the grand prize of . . .Nothing.
Well with most it the 'I want to win' concept. Besides a mature deer only puts about 50-70 lbs of meat in the freezer. That amount to about 1-1.5 lbs of meat per week. Not much really.
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"No positive results in the last few years" is simply your opinion. I ask you, how did we get to where we are today? The masses of people blaming farm bureau and insurance companies and possed off all over the net and social media. A stakeholder organisation created, a lot of hunters pissed off and correctly pointing the finger where it belongs. We sure have come a long ways from the days where the DNR could get away with blaming hunters lack of adapting to changing food sources for lower harvest numbers, good or bad mast crops both being used to explain away lower harvest numbers, the excuse of the deer population isn't down as evident by the lack of roadkill squirrels. The year after year of 750k bogus population numbers being shouted from the rooftops, and believed.
Back when we started screaming about this 99% of people said we were nuts, then they blamed their neighbors new feeder for the lack of deer sightings as they were "all over there", they blamed that guy down the road who was leasing and planted food plots for "holding all the deer". What you claim is a lack of results is anything but. I ask you, over the last 8 years what other group have you seen screaming about this? Ohio bowhunters association? US Sportsmans alliance? Whitetails Unlimited? The only, and I mean ONLY group to bang this war drum for 8 years and take the fight directly where it belongs has been TOO. And like I said earlier. With over 16 million views and 750k unique ohio visitors over that time, it's bound to have influenced public opinion and knowledge on the matter. Sometimes buddy the tail wags the dog, and i don't need to sit across the table from the DNR or have our name in a press release to see proof that its working. We may not be at that table, but there is a table none the less, and i can assure you it was not created due to the silence on the topic from other groups over the years.
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While i can't speak for other sites i can say that on TOO we've discussed the removal of does as part of our contest. The general consensus ended up being that if you've been around here any length of time you're likely pretty well educated on the population issue and should make the call for yourself in the area you hunt. To participate in our contest you need 50 posts and we don't have a large population of less experianced members who ask questions such as "do deer eat black walnuts" like some other places deal with on a daily basis. We also discussed adding prizes and decided against it as we wouldnt want to tempt someone to overharvest just to win a prize. While our contest allows for the scoring of a doe we've always advised people to use common sense for their area.
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