Deer Management Stakeholder Organization.

[Hortontoter]

On Frank's behalf, I'll say this. Sometimes you have to take the bull by the horns. Frank saw the same writing on the wall as I did. We both saw fit to buy our own parcel of land that we could use in the ways we saw fit.

I understand that we all buy licenses and this money should be put to good use to benefit us all. But, we all know that this hasn't been the case to at least some degree. Depending on someone else to fulfill your desires isn't always the best approach.

 

[giles]

On Frank's behalf, I'll say this. Sometimes you have to take the bull by the horns. Frank saw the same writing on the wall as I did. We both saw fit to buy our own parcel of land that we could use in the ways we saw fit.

I understand that we all buy licenses and this money should be put to good use to benefit us all. But, we all know that this hasn't been the case to at least some degree. Depending on someone else to fulfill your desires isn't always the best approach.

I agree and have done the same and continue to look to purchase more property. That's on me, not the state. That's all I'm saying. In a way, the state what's forced me to think this way. I will not stand here and commend a group that is forcing me to do this.

After living in a state with TON's of public land and extreme management practices, what I'm seeing done here in Ohio seems foolish.

 

[Hunter II]

Here is my take on the slides presented.

On decreasing license sales the DOW is not to blame:
“Historically the Division’s decisions have had little effect on these rates.”

The real bad guy is internet porn:
“increasing convenience and hedonistic qualities of new entertainment technologies”

“Despite the nationwide drop in hunting participation overall, the number of big game hunters has remained relatively stable”
Could this be because habitat on public land is not being managed for small game? Everyone used to start with small game and then ‘graduate’ to deer. If small game numbers are down along with deer numbers why would new hunters want to join the ranks?

"In almost all of the fields surveyed, most wildlife damage resulted in relatively low yield losses (<$100). For the most heavily damaged fields we surveyed, yield losses were less than $500 based on the number of damaged plants, assuming 100 percent loss for each damaged plant. A total loss of approximately 1.4 acres of corn, or 32,000 plants, would equal $500 in damage. Similarly, over 1.8 acres of soybeans would have to be completely damaged at $5.50/bu with a yield of 49 bushels/acre (2005 statewide averages for Indiana [USDA-NASS 2006]) to reach $500 in damage. However, light to moderate browsing of soybeans by white-tailed deer usually results in no yield loss (Garrison and Lewis 1987). Five hundred dollars is the minimum amount of damage required to obtain a Deer Control Permit; thus, a substantial amount of damage to either corn or soybeans is required to reach that threshold."

It would be interesting to see the documentation of the justification for damage permits. The pictures of this damage must be absolutely shocking.

 

[Hortontoter]

I agree and have done the same and continue to look to purchase more property. That's on me, not the state. That's all I'm saying. In a way, the state what's forced me to think this way. I will not stand here and commend a group that is forcing me to do this.

After living in a state with TON's of public land and extreme management practices, what I'm seeing done here in Ohio seems foolish.

Comparing the two states is like comparing coal to gold. The demographics aren't even comparable.

 

[bowhunter1023]

Again, what Joe said.

 

[MK111]

Frank, you have clearly stated time and time before how you created what you have. Not the state. Your argument here is invalid to me because of this. The state or its refs did nothing, you did it.

Live steaming or recording these meetings would sure help clear up a lot of this. Currently this seems more like entertainment/circus act. I feel bad for Brent on this...they haven't exactly put him in a spot to be successful IMO.

Giles,
Yes I created my little hunting honey hole. But the deer were already here I just pull them onto my food plot and farm. I don't hold the deer here they come only to feed.
This area of the county is almost 50% brush areas. There is alot of cover for the deer and alot of deer we have.

 

[mrex.0]

This will be my first year not deer hunting in the last 49 straight years. I have lived and hunted through many of the changes that have occurred in this sport over that time. While I will no longer be hunting deer in a foreseeable future, maybe ever, I sincerely hope that deer hunting can continue for many more generations to enjoy. I have no love for much of what deer hunting has come to mean to many, especially the commercialization aspect so prevalent today. Many of the younger hunters today have never known deer hunting to be anything other than what it is today and older folks are at a loss to explain to them in words what it was to them in spirit and mind in a different time.

In my opinion deer hunters today, as a whole, are a very spoiled, self entitled, group of perpetual whiners that only seem to care about their own interests and provide little room for the consideration of anyone that doesn't align with their own beliefs. I think that there are many members here that clearly have helped me to the formulation of my opinion. I have for many years witnessed here the bombastic rhetoric and indignation expressed towards so many fellow hunters and hunter organizations that dare to express an opposing opinion. I personally have been the target on more than one occasion for merely providing an opinion in opposition.

How many times have I read here that there was going to be an organized effort to contribute to change, to combat the evil managers of the deer herd, to rally the troops for a unified voice of strength? Nothing has happened that I can see, just angry talk with no action at all.

Then along comes a group that apparently is trying to actually do something, anything. Maybe not a perfect group. maybe not even a good group, I don't know, but to read the responses reminded me of a new thread that was started here late last year and the post that I made in response.

http://www.theohiooutdoors.com/show...used-quot-deer-hunters-only-quot-organization


I'm sure everyone here are great guys, I have no personal animosity towards any of you., You certainly possess great passion for your beliefs and that is to be admired. I am also equally as sure that unless you can channel your passion into a positive force and learn to recognize the passion of others with differing views and compromise you will never realize your goals. It's easy to stand on the sideline and yell, It is much, much harder to actually play the game.

Just my opinion.

Kim...are you taking time off because of the loss of your primary hunting spot or are you losing interest...or a combination of both?

 

[giles]

Comparing the two states is like comparing coal to gold. The demographics aren't even comparable.

You are right. Still plenty of room for improvement in Ohio.

Depending on your want/needs, both can be equally worth their weight!

 

[giles]

Giles,
Yes I created my little hunting honey hole. But the deer were already here I just pull them onto my food plot and farm. I don't hold the deer here they come only to feed.
This area of the county is almost 50% brush areas. There is alot of cover for the deer and alot of deer we have.

Not sure how to put this in words...maybe someone else can help me out. But you've done way more then create food. You have managed the deer in your area by what you don't kill. You aren't killing what they say you should/can.

Brings up another problem. By the way they work deer herd numbers currently, that means you have a very low population.

I will also use this opportunity to bring up exactly how important I think education and communication is. I don't feel the state is doing either of those on a reasonable level.

 

[Bigslam51]

Not sure how to put this in words...maybe someone else can help me out. But you've done way more then create food. You have managed the deer in your area by what you don't kill. You aren't killing what they say you should/can.

Brings up another problem. By the way they work deer herd numbers currently, that means you have a very low population.

I will also use this opportunity to bring up exactly how important I think education and communication is. I don't feel the state is doing either of those on a reasonable level.

Frank's post also brings up the fact that there are good pockets of deer in each county of Ohio, harvest numbers don't really tell the whole story. Butler county killed 1,200 deer last year, not a very significant number when you look at other counties such as Guernsey, Tuscarawas, licking, etc.

 

[giles]

Frank's post also brings up the fact that there are good pockets of deer in each county of Ohio, harvest numbers don't really tell the whole story. Butler county killed 1,200 deer last year, not a very significant number when you look at other counties such as Guernsey, Tuscarawas, licking, etc.

How many were antlered? Also according to them, those are the numbers that matter.

 

[Bigslam51]

How many were antlered? Also according to them, those are the numbers that matter.

Idk about the antlered kill. Here's a fact, I can hunt my best farm and be guaranteed to see at least a half dozen deer if not more on a single hunt, then move 2 miles away to a different farm and be lucky to see one.

 

[Lundy]

Mike,

I was in the final years my hunting deer prior to losing the farm. Losing the farm just made it an easier decision to make. It made the decision for me and in actuality made it easier on me. I had been telling my hunting partner for the last few years that I was rapidly approaching the day when I would no longer deer hunt. With Richard still having the farm and the relationship I had with him personally over all of those years was making that a difficult decision. After Richard sold the farm even if there was continued access I still would have been done hunting there after last year. I have places to go hunt If I want to hunt.

I never grew tired of deer hunting, I still love it to this day but I had just reached a point in my life where I have killed enough deer. It is a personal decision. I will continue to hunt with my camera and I may hunt again at some point out of state or in state in the future, I don't really know at this point. It is difficult to put into words and explain.

I am 100% sure that the Monday after Thanksgiving this year will be a difficult day for me. I'm sure I will be here anxiously awaiting to read all of the stories. Everyone take a bunch of pictures please!

 

[giles]

Idk about the antlered kill. Here's a fact, I can hunt my best farm and be guaranteed to see at least a half dozen deer if not more on a single hunt, then move 2 miles away to a different farm and be lucky to see one.

Consider yourself lucky to see deer that often! I used to have that experience...but we did what we were told and killed TOO many. "Quality vs Quantity" is what they said...

 

[Jackalope]

Mike,

I was in the final years my hunting deer prior to losing the farm. Losing the farm just made it an easier decision to make. It made the decision for me and in actuality made it easier on me. I had been telling my hunting partner for the last few years that I was rapidly approaching the day when I would no longer deer hunt. With Richard still having the farm and the relationship I had with him personally over all of those years was making that a difficult decision. After Richard sold the farm even if there was continued access I still would have been done hunting there after last year. I have places to go hunt If I want to hunt.

I never grew tired of deer hunting, I still love it to this day but I had just reached a point in my life where I have killed enough deer. It is a personal decision. I will continue to hunt with my camera and I may hunt again at some point out of state or in state in the future, I don't really know at this point. It is difficult to put into words and explain.

I am 100% sure that the Monday after Thanksgiving this year will be a difficult day for me. I'm sure I will be here anxiously awaiting to read all of the stories. Everyone take a bunch of pictures please!

Sorry to hear this again Lundy. While you personally lost access to the property didn't Richard sell it to some guys who intended on hunting it?

 

[Lundy]

While hunting wasn't their stated primary reason for purchasing the property they will be hunting it for sure. I left all of my permanent ground blinds for them as part of last years deal with them. I tried to provide them with bunches of pictures and insight into the typical deer activity and location on the farm but they were not very interested in that information. They expressed that they already knew what they needed to know.. That huge property was very much aligned along the rule of 90% of the good deer were pretty much isolated to 10% of the property most of the year.The deer that were there when I first started hunting there have been dead of old age many times over, multiple generations and they all, every generation, used the property basically the same way over all of those years. You know what is funny, if I had primarily hunted some parts of that farm all of those years I would have sworn there were no deer in that county.

 

[bowhunter1023]

While hunting wasn't their stated primary reason for purchasing the property they will be hunting it for sure. I left all of my permanent ground blinds for them as part of last years deal with them. I tried to provide them with bunches of pictures and insight into the typical deer activity and location on the farm but they were not very interested in that information. They expressed that they already knew what they needed to know.. That huge property was very much aligned along the rule of 90% of the good deer were pretty much isolated to 10% of the property most of the year.The deer that were there when I first started hunting there have been dead of old age many times over, multiple generations and they all, every generation, used the property basically the same way over all of those years. You know what is funny, if I had primarily hunted some parts of that farm all of those years I would have sworn there were no deer in that county.

Curious as it how many acres that 10% correlated to Kim? Not overly pertinent to this discussion, but I do have one in mind where it'd be applicable.

I too am sorry to read your last few posts. Maybe it's time to take up waterfowl hunting? We all know how legendary the duck hunting is in Athens.

 

[MK111]

How many were antlered? Also according to them, those are the numbers that matter.

2016-17 season total of deer harvested 1231.
Bow- 382 buck
Gun- 172 buck
Bow- 423 doe
Gun- 244 doe

Doe- 667 total
Buck- 564 total

So it appears to me the doe kill of 667 and buck kill of 564 is only 103 more does being taken. So does this mean that bucks are taken out and low does kills will permit the deer numbers to keep raising? I surely think so.

 

[Bigslam51]

I think that just means there aren't many deer in Butler county.

 

[Jackalope]

2016-17 season total of deer harvested 1231.
Bow- 382 buck
Gun- 172 buck
Bow- 423 doe
Gun- 244 doe

Doe- 667 total
Buck- 564 total

So it appears to me the doe kill of 667 and buck kill of 564 is only 103 more does being taken. So does this mean that bucks are taken out and low does kills will permit the deer numbers to keep raising? I surely think so.

The problem is without knowing the correct population number that is a very big assumption. You can't accurately manage a live population by counting dead deer. Its the equivalent of trying to guess how many apples are left in the farmers orchard by counting the apples at Krogers. The only way someone could even begin to accurately know is if they had knowledge of how many there were to begin with. Each week the store could get 564 apples. To the DNR that would mean the supply is steady. They have no idea if there are 2,000 apples left or 20,000 by counting the 564 on the shelf. There just isn't enough data and too many assumptions and variables. The population in the field would have to be incredibly lower than where it was before you begin to even notice a change.

Another example I like to use is say someone owned an old fashioned candy store. Each week the same 10 kids come in and take a handful of candy out of a giant jar that is filled to the top. The owner never looks at the actual jar in the back of the store, he only sees the candy that is in their hand. He would absolutely zero idea how much candy is left in that jar. The only thing he sees is the same 10 kids with the same handful of candy. The first inclination that something is wrong will be when a kid walks up and he only has a half a handful of candy. At no point as that candy begins to disappear will those children say to themselves this candy is disappearing so I only better take half of what I used to. We may convince one kid to do that but the other nine will not. What the store owner ended up with was once a giant jar of candy that is now almost completely empty. It is for this reason that stores conduct inventory, actually count the supply. It is then and only then can they accurately guess how much candy is left in the jar by counting the handfuls of candy leaving the store.

The fisheries up at Lake Erie understand this premise for estimating the walleye population. Each year they drag 35 set routes in the western basin to seine spawned walleye. This gives them an idea of the hatch, aka they're counting actual live fish. This combined with estimating the harvest gives them a pretty good picture to set limits by. Without that live count the harvest count is worthless.