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2025 EHD?

Creamer said:
Curious observation, I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has seen anything like this. We have a "yard doe" that has been hanging around the property all summer. She's been easy to spot for the last week+ because she has sort of a spotty coat. It's like her fall coat started coming in early so she is easy to ID. About 10 days ago, she had that lethargic, weak-looking, apathetic demeanor that made me think she's got EHD and she doesn't have long. She's still alive, still acting the same. I literally can see her out my window right now by our pines. She's practically been standing in one place for almost 15 minutes now. I read online some deer do survive EHD, so it makes me wonder if she's had/does have it but she might survive it? It's interesting that I have read about southern deer developing some level of immunity from EHD. I'm optimistic at this point she might survive, but we'll see what happens.
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If I remember right from what I have read, 20% of deer can or will survive the illness. The mothers can pass along some level of immunity to their fawns the next spring. But it only lasts one year. Also if a different variant of ehd hits, the immunity may not help.
 
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Bighoun52 said:
If I remember right from what I have read, 20% of deer can or will survive the illness. The mothers can pass along some level of immunity to their fawns the next spring. But it only lasts one year. Also if a different variant of ehd hits, the immunity may not help.
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I believe this is correct, similar to what I have read. It is also similar to most viruses. Cattle (I think) are more immune due to constant bacterial and viral inoculations occurring. Basically, the flu shot changes each year, ever so slightly, to mimic the flu variants likely to be most common that particular season.

It is interesting that some in the SE part of the USA say they dont get EHD like they used to see it, and that they equate that to herd immunity over the years? I am not sure if there is any validity there, but I have seen that claim made multiple times this year on the internet from folks.
 
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The DNR was in my taxidermist's shop last year taking CWD samples. He saw my bucks hooves and said it could be a sign of surviving EHD. Not sure what led him to belive that, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

20241109_094758.webp
 
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@brock ratcliff I’m curious your take on this but realistically could ODNR hire drone operators to get deer populations in the worst hit areas? Seems if just flying to count thermal light deer - a drone could cover a lot of ground quickly? Maybe a thermal on an airplane is better?
 
at1010 said:
@brock ratcliff I’m curious your take on this but realistically could ODNR hire drone operators to get deer populations in the worst hit areas? Seems if just flying to count thermal light deer - a drone could cover a lot of ground quickly? Maybe a thermal on an airplane is better?
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It would be entirely possible to get a far better population estimate than they have ever had before. However, the Dow is dug in deep to the belief they can form accurate models based off of harvest trends. They see no need to make changes or improvements in modeling. Per Tonkovich @ Strouds with at least 25 witnesses; “If we kill too many, people will quit hunting and the herd will rebound.” And in that he is correct. Prior to him saying that, I was completely wrong in my thinking that the DoW were managing to insure a balance between happy stakeholders. His statement proved to me that we sportsmen are not the stakeholders he was concerned with.
 
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I realize he has retired but want to invite those concerned to listen to this podcast. At the 50-55 minute mark he mentions how Ohio May have to move to a market venison situation to control excess deer. He makes mention of it two times in the podcast. Additionally, he sites a decrease in the percentage of bucks entered into OBBC as a metric for declining buck antler quality. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know the OBBC is not the benchmark it historically was. Mason’s exceptional buck from 2020 has never been scored for BC or the OBBC. And I don’t think his is an exception. A Buckmaster scorer was at our home to measure that deer less than five hours after he killed it. Times have changed; metrics change.
 
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brock ratcliff said:

I realize he has retired but want to invite those concerned to listen to this podcast. At the 50-55 minute mark he mentions how Ohio May have to move to a market venison situation to control excess deer. He makes mention of it two times in the podcast. Additionally, he sites a decrease in the percentage of bucks entered into OBBC as a metric for declining buck antler quality. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know the OBBC is not the benchmark it historically was. Mason’s exceptional buck from 2020 has never been scored for BC or the OBBC. And I don’t think his is an exception. A Buckmaster scorer was at our home to measure that deer less than five hours after he killed it. Times have changed; metrics change.
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Agreed, the one constant in any formula is change.
 
brock ratcliff said:
It would be entirely possible to get a far better population estimate than they have ever had before. However, the Dow is dug in deep to the belief they can form accurate models based off of harvest trends. They see no need to make changes or improvements in modeling. Per Tonkovich @ Strouds with at least 25 witnesses; “If we kill too many, people will quit hunting and the herd will rebound.” And in that he is correct. Prior to him saying that, I was completely wrong in my thinking that the DoW were managing to insure a balance between happy stakeholders. His statement proved to me that we sportsmen are not the stakeholders he was concerned with.
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That is frustrating. I have been suggesting (loosely) that we utilize these drones to manage township-level areas for DPSM. It seems that it would be affordable, and also allow for areas that need herd reduction to be accurately reduced and those that need herd increase, by biological standards, to be increased.

My good buddy lives in PA, and they have zones around some suburban areas. They will say zone A needs 30 does shot. So they sell those tags, and once they are gone, they are gone. You can't bring in 40 more hunters 40 to shoot more. Likewise, for the individual who only bucks hunt, this allows others who feel they need to manage the population to do so.

I also think this would give the ODNR strong backing as they are then able to have statistical data to show "township X needs a 30% reduction based on hunter harvest data, thermal drone survey, state forester feedback, etc." - we could legit map out the entire state by township.

Ok - I know, I know my enthusiasm about this is likely unrealistic and I need to stop rambling,but a guy can dream!!

Ps - I have been lucky to kill a few decent bucks, I never put a tape to one. Just not my thing. I'm happy with the animal on the wall, I dont need a "score" to increase or dilute my happiness. That is my personal take, but I am sure others feel the same and dont "score" many bucks.
 
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J said:
How cost effective would drone use be? That would be their deciding factor I’d imagine.
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I think it’s the effort required. Our biologist rarely leave the office unless it’s to speak publicly. We do not do extensive research on whitetail deer. Regarding Cwd, we have tried to follow what other states have done to this point, which is ridiculous considering those states have had zero positive effect on CWD spread.
 
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J said:
How cost effective would drone use be? That would be their deciding factor I’d imagine.
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I imagine it would be pretty effective.

On a similar scope - I have a bunch of acres in NRCS/EQUIP. The state forester covers 3-4 counties and must walk, inventory, mark, and perform other tasks in wooded hills throughout the area, write up plans, submit bureaucratic paperwork, and meet with landowners to sign them, among other responsibilities. Now, this isn't at the township level, but having a GPS drone or hiring a crew to collect accurate DPSM data or use thermals on airplanes, I believe, could be the absolute new wave of DPSM data and state management.

I would pay 2-3x license cost if I knew this type of management could be used/implemented. With all the dollars going towards CWD, I think there is a strong lobbying pitch for FED dollars to help us better understand the actual densities, and how this may or may not impact the spread.

I ran some numbers on this based on some AI figures I could research
  • 3 multirotors: plan on ~8 hours to cover a standard Ohio township.
  • 3 fixed-wings: plan on ~6–7.5 hours.

That is the time it would take to cover a standard township. This is not trying to locate big bucks; this is deer density. There are roughly 1308 townships in Ohio.

That comes out to be around 400+/- working days for the entire state.
If you break this down by county - avg. townships 15 per county
A 3-drone crew, running 8 hours per day, will take around 15 days to survey an entire county.

If we assume 30 dollars per hour or 55 per hour per operator, see the stats below to do the entire state.

$30/hr scenario:
  • Low: 10,030×88=882,64010,030 \times 88 = 882,64010,030×88=882,640
  • High: 10,700×88=941,60010,700 \times 88 = 941,60010,700×88=941,600
    $883K–$942K for the state
$55/hr scenario:
  • Low: 18,400×88=1,619,20018,400 \times 88 = 1,619,20018,400×88=1,619,200
  • High: 19,600×88=1,724,80019,600 \times 88 = 1,724,80019,600×88=1,724,800
    $1.62M–$1.72M for the state
Statewide cost to survey all 88 Ohio counties with 3 drones & 3 operators:
  • $883K–$942K at $30/hr/operator
  • $1.62M–$1.72M at $55/hr/operator
I believe the Ohio Division of Wildlife budget comes out to be $98 MM per year (I could be wrong). This seems like a drop in the bucket, or you could raise tags by $5 per year, and more than enough (assuming these estimates are even close). $5 per 431,000 tags = 2.155MM dollars!

The point being, I think that if my dumb ass can come up with a logical way to find, fund, and quantify harvest data that would put Ohio in the TOP of the TOP deer hunting states, I am certain it could be done efficiently. Not to mention obtaining and targeting funding from third-party sources, such as NDA, Fed, etc.
 
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I can tell you Seth and I did some surveys for metro parks. We did not work for 55/hour. It was a substantially higher rate. He enlisted the help of a GIS friend to lay out all the information in a concise format. It was very impressive finished product. The directors of the parks were overly impressed in comparison to the results they got from fixed wing fly overs. Were able to identify sex of deer and we gave a very accurate count of deer that is not available with fixed wing aircraft simply because fixed wings have to fly at low altitude, with snow cover, and the deer scatter when flown over. Generally speaking, they don’t even look up when a drone is above them. I have no idea what the cost would be, but quality operators are not cheap. At this point, I don’t believe the DoW has any interest in accurate counts. They have gotten along well enough by their standards with antiquated techniques.
 
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brock ratcliff said:
I can tell you Seth and I did some surveys for metro parks. We did not work for 55/hour. It was a substantially higher rate. He enlisted the help of a GIS friend to lay out all the information in a concise format. It was very impressive finished product. The directors of the parks were overly impressed in comparison to the results they got from fixed wing fly overs. Were able to identify sex of deer and we gave a very accurate count of deer that is not available with fixed wing aircraft simply because fixed wings have to fly at low altitude, with snow cover, and the deer scatter when flown over. Generally speaking, they don’t even look up when a drone is above them. I have no idea what the cost would be, but quality operators are not cheap. At this point, I don’t believe the DoW has any interest in accurate counts. They have gotten along well enough by their standards with antiquated techniques.
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Ya I figured that at a large scale work and just density count - we could have a bid but maybe it’s 2-4x that amount.

I know the idea is pie in sky. It just gives me hope that maybe we could do something that would be better than zones or county bag limits and I feel like the only way to advocate for change is to present some type of idea or solution.

Maybe I am just blindly optimistic- although I feel my outlook gets less optimistic as each year passes
 
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