Add the total is...

[Gern186]

Last Season the DNR moved 6 counties from Zone A to Zone B.. Here is how those counties fared.

ALL counties saw a double digit increase in kills.

5 of the 6 saw above a 20% increase

Defiance 2,042 1593 449 +22%
Fulton 1,029 785 244 +24%
Henry 940 733 207 +22%
Paulding 1,441 1023 418 +29%
Van Wert 835 662 173 +21%
Williams 2,316 1,985 331 +14%

Yay!!!! I win with 29% increase!!!!

Actually, that sucks and I know it. All that means is there will be a lot less deer next year and the following years to come.

There are still plenty of deer out there to kill, the world isn't falling off it's axis because the statewide kill finally declined after many years of continually increasing. Guys are still going to fill their freezers and the good hunters will still kill their bucks.

 

[Jackalope]

Yay!!!! I win with 29% increase!!!!

Actually, that sucks and I know it. All that means is there will be a lot less deer next year and the following years to come.

There are still plenty of deer out there to kill, the world isn't falling off it's axis because the statewide kill finally declined after many years of continually increasing. Guys are still going to fill their freezers and the good hunters will still kill their bucks.

Yeah. That makes sense. So what if the McDonald's drive thru takes an hour, you still got a hamburger right. So what if you saw 10 deer a day and now see 1 in 3 days. You still got 1 deer. So what if 29% of WNF goes up in flames, hikers and hunters can still use the rest. Whatever buddy, you keep telling yourself that and poking your head in the sand while the dnr runs around with a flame thrower. Lol.

 

[Mountaineer]

Diablo..

Pretty simple..Check stations required exmination and a metal tag for the deer. Kill a big buck ..take it to the check station and it draws attention(exposure)...Once expsoed..a Poacher better have proper accountability for that deer. With no check stations...there's no accountability..Once the buck is home its like it never existed....How does a phone call create accountability for that particular deer?

For example...For my 2010 buck, the check station guy came out to my truck and inspected my deer..He took my temp. tag..made sure it was from my license and then put a metal tag on the antlers..and he said "everything looks good" and away i went.

 

[Gern186]

Yeah. That makes sense. So what if the McDonald's drive thru takes an hour, you still got a hamburger right. So what if you saw 10 deer a day and now see 1 in 3 days. You still got 1 deer. So what if 29% of WNF goes up in flames, hikers and hunters can still use the rest. Whatever buddy, you keep telling yourself that and poking your head in the sand while the dnr runs around with a flame thrower. Lol.

You just keep killing button bucks and I will just keep killing real bucks.:smiley_coolpeace:

If it took more than 5 minutes to get a burger at McPukes, I would be heading down the road. I already know the DNR is going to do what they want no matter what I say or what you say.......I went with several guys last year to the DNR open house in Findlay and we voiced our opinion onto deaf ears. It really becomes up to the individual hunters in a given area to decide what's best for their given area.....if you decide to whack button bucks year in and year out, don't be surprised if there are less antlered bucks to shoot the following years......Yeah, I know your theory on button bucks and how they won't be around the area the following year.

 

[RedCloud]

:smiley_couch:

 

[Jackalope]

You just keep killing button bucks and I will just keep killing real bucks.:smiley_coolpeace:

If it took more than 5 minutes to get a burger at McPukes, I would be heading down the road. I already know the DNR is going to do what they want no matter what I say or what you say.......I went with several guys last year to the DNR open house in Findlay and we voiced our opinion onto deaf ears. It really becomes up to the individual hunters in a given area to decide what's best for their given area.....if you decide to whack button bucks year in and year out, don't be surprised if there are less antlered bucks to shoot the following years......Yeah, I know your theory on button bucks and how they won't be around the area the following year.

"It really becomes up to the individual hunters in a given area to decide what's best for their given area...."

WRONG... Not a hunters job.. That's the county Wildlife officers job, who is then supposed to report it to Tonk, who then coupled with other data makes a management decision on limits. The key word was "limits".. Not "Quotas"... Meaning they have set a number (a limit) that we should not go above or it would achieve too much of a kill. The DNR does not set "Quotas" where they say "hunters have to kill 2 minimum, anything more than that is at their discretion." This is why wildlife officers have degrees and are not just another ticket writer cop.. The bottom line is it's not the job of the hunter to limit the kills on a parcel. While it can be done it is completely asinine of the system as a whole. If that were the case Gern Lets move Ohios buck limiit to 4 a year.. I'm sure enough hunters will "self Limit" so there shouldn't be a problem.. Right? Pffffftttt whatever...

Yearling buck dispersal it is not a "theory".. It's a well proven fact from study after study of radio collared natal bucks.. They migrate an average of 5 miles from their area of birth about a year after birth. In some rare cases up to 100 miles. However females tend to stay right in the same area they were born.. It's natures way to prevent inbreeding.. Not a "theory" it's natural design... If I want more does on my property because the DNR is fugging up.. Then I'm not going to shoot a resident doe who will drop fawns.. Nor am I going to shoot resident bucks past their natal dispersement age.. But a BB.. I don't give a shit.. He's not going to stay anyway.. It's a zero population impact strategy to me.. See what happens when hunters are forced to practice "self limiting" It doesn't work.. And you and the DNR know it.. It hasn't worked since the white man set foot on this dirt, and isn't going to magically work now..

 

[Gern186]

"It really becomes up to the individual hunters in a given area to decide what's best for their given area...."

WRONG... Not a hunters job.. That's the county Wildlife officers job, who is then supposed to report it to Tonk, who then coupled with other data makes a management decision on limits. The key word was "limits".. Not "Quotas"... Meaning they have set a number (a limit) that we should not go above or it would achieve too much of a kill. The DNR does not set "Quotas" where they say "hunters have to kill 2 minimum, anything more than that is at their discretion." This is why wildlife officers have degrees and are not just another ticket writer cop.. The bottom line is it's not the job of the hunter to limit the kills on a parcel. While it can be done it is completely asinine of the system as a whole. If that were the case Gern Lets move Ohios buck limiit to 4 a year.. I'm sure enough hunters will "self Limit" so there shouldn't be a problem.. Right? Pffffftttt whatever...

Yearling buck dispersal it is not a "theory".. It's a well proven fact from study after study of radio collared natal bucks.. They migrate an average of 5 miles from their area of birth about a year after birth. In some rare cases up to 100 miles. However females tend to stay right in the same area they were born.. It's natures way to prevent inbreeding.. Not a "theory" it's natural design... If I want more does on my property because the DNR is fugging up.. Then I'm not going to shoot a resident doe who will drop fawns.. Nor am I going to shoot resident bucks past their natal dispersement age.. But a BB.. I don't give a shit.. He's not going to stay anyway.. It's a zero population impact strategy to me.. See what happens when hunters are forced to practice "self limiting" It doesn't work.. And you and the DNR know it.. It hasn't worked since the white man set foot on this dirt, and isn't going to magically work now..

So you are saying that a group of hunters in a 2 square mile area have no impact on the quality and number of deer that are available? Obama is supposed to be running this country too, but we all know how that is going. I'm not going to rely on the DNR to provide me with a deer. The deer herd in the mid 90's was about 1/3 what it is now and we got along just fine back then.


It may not be the hunters "job" per say, but it is reality and the way things are and will always be. If I were you I wouldn't be telling your theory of button bucks and their travel patterns to your neighbors......maybe that's why you are having a hard time killing an antlered buck....your neighbors all believe their button bucks don't matter so they kill them, leaving you with no bucks to shoot the following years.

Bottom line is if you kill button bucks then you guarantee your chance of killing a nice buck down the road reduces tenfold! Of all people I can't believe that you don't put 2 and 2 together to see that bucks travel greater distances during the pre rut and rut.......therefore the button bucks that you shot this year could be dispersed bucks that could magically show up back on your lease 3-5 years down the road and be mature, but nope that's not going to happen because they are veal in your freezer when they are a mere 6 months old.

Theory or not, I don't shoot button bucks for ANY reason and neither do any of the serious hunters around here that I know. There is always a chance that one of them might just grow up and be something special if given the chance. What happens if you get permission 5 miles down the road next year? Damn, there could of been a couple more bucks on that farm but somebody must have already killed them with nubs on their heads!

Look at the big picture, you kill button bucks, they will never grow bone.

And by what you said about moving Ohio's buck limit to 4, well basically that's already what is happening when guys like yourself kill button bucks at will.

 

[Tree Monkey]

I am gonna have to agree that it is the hunters who make the biggest impact on the deer heard and if you think a govt run department will do what is best for the hunters than ur smoking some good grass, the dnr will do what they want .......the voice of the people is a distant echo......and im willing to.bet that not all button bucks leave or stray from their home range, there will be a few stick around and we all know an inferior yearling or even a two year old has potential to grow up and be a shooter.

 

[Tree Monkey]

Hey jack how much land do.you have access to for.deer hunting?

 

[Jackalope]

I am gonna have to agree that it is the hunters who make the biggest impact on the deer heard and if you think a govt run department will do what is best for the hunters than ur smoking some good grass, the dnr will do what they want .......the voice of the people is a distant echo......and im willing to.bet that not all button bucks leave or stray from their home range, there will be a few stick around and we all know an inferior yearling or even a two year old has potential to grow up and be a shooter.

We already see that.. But to sit there and tell me that it is even remotely possible for the majority of hunters to commit mutiny on the DNR. And create their own personal arbitrary limits, to an extent that it will have positive outcome is lunacy... Not going to happen.. If allowed hunters in this state would kill deer to 0.. Hence the entire reason we have limits... And a DNR to set those limits... While most here on this site give a damn about numbers etc, i will venture to say 70% of the rest of them have never, and will never give a damn, or are too uninformed of the big picture to see it. All they know is throw out some corn and shoot the first thing that walks in.. "I got my buck" people.. If this were even remotely possible. PA would still be awesome hunting after their DNR went Askew. Michigan would still be awesome after their DNR went askew.. While i agree with the theory and believe it would work in concept, the reality is it is an impossibility. Hunters will kill.. The DNR needs to manage..

 

[Jackalope]

Hey jack how much land do.you have access to for.deer hunting?

In Clark county around 30 acres wooded. 200 tillable.. Neighbors on both sides hunt.

In Vinton county. 900 or so all wooded, and the neighboring properties get blasted come shotgun.. Always have, always will. And that will never change.

 

[Tree Monkey]

A hunters best tool is to be mobile, I have my "home acres " I spend a majority of my time in but I have land from one county line to the other. That I can hunt you could go as far and say 10miles x 10 miles at the least. I won't make excuses but my harvest numbers drop drastically when I started coaching football ....less time and less acess to land due to long drives. I sure heck won't wait for the deer to come to me, I am gonna go where the deer are and set up there......I do alot of road scouting hyou, i limit pressure by glassing from the road and make mental notes of travel paths.......I m sure other guys can relate to hunting the county.......one thing I do agree is that each county should have it's own limit and I am sure you can agree to that.

 

[Jackalope]

So you are saying that a group of hunters in a 2 square mile area have no impact on the quality and number of deer that are available? Obama is supposed to be running this country too, but we all know how that is going. I'm not going to rely on the DNR to provide me with a deer. The deer herd in the mid 90's was about 1/3 what it is now and we got along just fine back then.

Yest they do.. My point is good luck convincing all of them not to shoot deer...

It may not be the hunters "job" per say, but it is reality and the way things are and will always be. If I were you I wouldn't be telling your theory of button bucks and their travel patterns to your neighbors......maybe that's why you are having a hard time killing an antlered buck....your neighbors all believe their button bucks don't matter so they kill them, leaving you with no bucks to shoot the following years.

I'm having a hard time "killing them", not "finding them" bud.. I consistently see 2-3 shooter bucks (140+) from the stand a couple times a season.. However luck is a whore.

Bottom line is if you kill button bucks then you guarantee your chance of killing a nice buck down the road reduces tenfold! Of all people I can't believe that you don't put 2 and 2 together to see that bucks travel greater distances during the pre rut and rut.......therefore the button bucks that you shot this year could be dispersed bucks that could magically show up back on your lease 3-5 years down the road and be mature, but nope that's not going to happen because they are veal in your freezer when they are a mere 6 months old.

Are you gonna sit there an tell me that in one year shooting 29% too many does, has less of an impact than shooting a BB that has about a 6% chance of making it to a 3.5 yo is somehow less impactful... Killing too many does lowers you future buck poplation FAR worse than the BB harvest. If you have 2 does 1 of them has a 50/50 chance of throwing twin BBs.. If you kill her.. You not only killed those two, you killed any future ones she is going to throw. Couple that out to harvest numbers increasing massively for 3 years, and in your case 29% in one year.. Assuming your buck kill stayed the same as we can only shoot 1. That 29% increase was 99% does i bet.. following the 50% throw bucks logic. You just killed 14% of next years BBs this year.. In one season.. And that's only if they all throw single BBs and not twins. Say half of 14% throw twins.. You just killed 22% of next years BBs. Which one has a bigger impact bud.. Killing too many does is bad All around.. period.

Theory or not, I don't shoot button bucks for ANY reason and neither do any of the serious hunters around here that I know. There is always a chance that one of them might just grow up and be something special if given the chance. What happens if you get permission 5 miles down the road next year? Damn, there could of been a couple more bucks on that farm but somebody must have already killed them with nubs on their heads!

Look at the big picture, you kill button bucks, they will never grow bone.

Look at the big picture.. You kill 29% extra does, you just killed 24% of next years button buck fawns..

And by what you said about moving Ohio's buck limit to 4, well basically that's already what is happening when guys like yourself kill button bucks at will.

And by shooting too many does, people around you are killing far far more than that.

...

 

[Jackalope]

A hunters best tool is to be mobile, I have my "home acres " I spend a majority of my time in but I have land from one county line to the other. That I can hunt you could go as far and say 10miles x 10 miles at the least. I won't make excuses but my harvest numbers drop drastically when I started coaching football ....less time and less acess to land due to long drives. I sure heck won't wait for the deer to come to me, I am gonna go where the deer are and set up there......I do alot of road scouting hyou, i limit pressure by glassing from the road and make mental notes of travel paths.......I m sure other guys can relate to hunting the county.......one thing I do agree is that each county should have it's own limit and I am sure you can agree to that.

Yes i do agree.. But it will not do any good if that limit is still set above the reproduction capability.

This was my first year hunting clark county on private ground. I got permission on it about a month before season. I glassed the beans from 700+ yards across the road on a hilltop with a 60x spotting scope and saw a couple nice ones. I learned the property quickly and was able to get on deer on almost every sit towards the end of season. I didn't shoot a single doe on it and shot 1 BB.. Next season however i will have plenty of property all over clark through George my coon hunting buddy.. I've already coon hunted the properties and picked out the ones i think would be worth the time.


And my 5th year in VC on what might as well be public land. Nice bucks. But they don't move during the daylight except maybe the first 2 weeks of season. And once gun rolls in you might as well not hunt it period for does. Especially now with the decimated numbers.

 

[Mountaineer]

Do i think the publiclands get over hunted?..Sure..Is it hard hunting ?..Absolutely..But I wouldnt have it any other way..For me..and this sounds crazy..ill only hunt Publicland..It doesnt go on my wall unless its taken from publicland..I guess its the personal challenge i seek...If things arent difficult..I get bored and i lose intrest.

I only ask myself one question when i go to hunt an area..Its not ..Are there tons of deer?..Its more..Can this area produce a 3.5 or older buck..Thats it.

How do i doit on Publicland?........The key is to not settle and to not give up..Given enough time ..I will cross paths with a mature buck sometime during the season...It may be the first day or the last but it will happen.

I wouldnt be too worried about low deer numbers..the ones your after are the ones most likely to survive season after season. You have to believe in your mind that the big bucks are there..or else you'll only defeat yourself.

 

[Diablo54]

Diablo..

Pretty simple..Check stations required exmination and a metal tag for the deer. Kill a big buck ..take it to the check station and it draws attention(exposure)...Once expsoed..a Poacher better have proper accountability for that deer. With no check stations...there's no accountability..Once the buck is home its like it never existed....How does a phone call create accountability for that particular deer?

For example...For my 2010 buck, the check station guy came out to my truck and inspected my deer..He took my temp. tag..made sure it was from my license and then put a metal tag on the antlers..and he said "everything looks good" and away i went.

Once the hunter has called in the deer a number is given which links the number to the deer. If a warden goes to Jimmys house and sees a 160 inch rack on the wall he can ask for a number or the card that the deer was issued when it was killed. If Jimmy doesn't have a number for the deer then he has poached it or done something illegal with it. I think all check stations are different. The one I go to the lady's behind the counter couldn't care less about your deer. They huff and puff that you have a deer to check in and then either hand you the tag and say have a nice day or they walk out to the truck and slap the tag on and walk away.

A poacher isn't going to take the deer he shot to the check in station and show it off and then leave. If he does he's an idiot. He can do the same thing now, kill it and take it home and never take it in.

 

[hickslawns]

.If things arent difficult..I get bored and i lose intrest.

That makes sense. Now I know why you like to stir the pot. You just don't want to get bored and lose interest.rotflmao

I only ask myself one question when i go to hunt an area..Its not ..Are there tons of deer?..Its more..Can this area produce a 3.5 or older buck..Thats it.

Not everyone has access to these places or a schedule which permits traveling to a place such as this. However, if there is a continued decline in deer population as a whole, there are certainly going to be less and less places which have big bucks. I think this is one of Jackalope's points. He wants the DNR to end the decimation.

Answer: Self govern as possible. Attend your open houses and voice your opinion (most likely in vain). This weekend is the open house for our district if I am not mistaken. Anyone thinking of attending should get out to their open houses and speak up. Other than these two options, we are pretty limited. Personally, I kill what we can eat. With luck on my side, it comes with antlers. I think I am going to go cut off a chunk of summer sausage now to nibble on with some cheese and crackers.

 

[Hoytmania]

All I know is that out of all 88 counties there is only 4 that saw a decrease of 1%. And all the properties I hunt in are in one of those counties.


:smiley_couch:

 

[Gern186]

...

What is your goal Jack? Do you want to see a shitload of does every time out or do you want to put a nice buck on the ground every once in a while?

I guess it depends on if you are a buck hunter or just a deer hunter. To me, all I care about is hunting 2 or possibly 3 bucks per year and tagging 1 of them.....A doe or 2 is a bonus and they are not that hard to come by......and if I don't shoot one, oh well no big deal.....I can guarantee I'm not going to shoot a button buck on purpose. IF you kill a button buck, he will never mature, ever. If you take some does out of the population and leave those button bucks then you increase the buck to doe ratio which makes more competition during peak breeding, which gives you a much better chance at killing a respectable buck.

If you never stop killing button bucks then what good is it to have extra does producing them the next year? What good is it going to do other than have a lot more antlerless deer running around with no peckered deer to breed them?

 

[Jackalope]

What is your goal Jack? Do you want to see a shitload of does every time out or do you want to put a nice buck on the ground every once in a while?

I guess it depends on if you are a buck hunter or just a deer hunter. To me, all I care about is hunting 2 or possibly 3 bucks per year and tagging 1 of them.....A doe or 2 is a bonus and they are not that hard to come by......and if I don't shoot one, oh well no big deal.....I can guarantee I'm not going to shoot a button buck on purpose. IF you kill a button buck, he will never mature, ever. If you take some does out of the population and leave those button bucks then you increase the buck to doe ratio which makes more competition during peak breeding, which gives you a much better chance at killing a respectable buck.

If you never stop killing button bucks then what good is it to have extra does producing them the next year? What good is it going to do other than have a lot more antlerless deer running around with no peckered deer to breed them?

I already know "what you care about".. You made that blatantly obvious when you attempted to insult me on my lack of wall hangers.. Here is what you fail to comprehend though.. I unlike you, do not judge another hunter by his trophy room, it is not the yardstick in which i measure success and failure.. See buddy, i have not allowed TV shows and people like Mike Waddel to pollute my passion and enjoyment of the outdoors with big buck marketing schemes. Wall hangers do not consume my very being and occupy my daily thoughts. Would I like to shoot one? Sure.. Who wouldn't. Is it something that concerns me? Perforates my every thought? Or keeps me awake at night? Nope.. I have not punched my buck tag for three years running.. Doesn't mean i couldn't have though.. I've had shots at deer in their 120s. For some reason i haven't shot them, The "I got my buck" doesn't consume my being. And it will have to be a 130-140+ before i even take the bow off the hook... Have i seen shooters from the stand. Sure.. Did they send me into some type of mental illness of regret or determination or "i gotta get that bastard".. nah..

To me. this is what it's all about... I had one this year about a 125 come through the woods nose down. He got to the base of my tree and locked up the brakes so hard his ass almost came off the ground. He sniffed the ground. Sniffed my sticks, and looked right up at me. The "O shit" look on his face was priceless. Did you know deer have facial expressions? He backed up in reverse to get a better look, and then he stepped on a stick that cracked, buddy you would have thought it was a snake, he high stepped around for a moment like a football player and finally collected himself again.. It was like he was so freaked out that he was caught dead to rights, But almost amazed i hadn't shot yet.. He was literally confused as hell thinking he was a goner, but nothing happened.. lol While someone may have shot him no questions asked. He didn't tickle my fancy. And I took the experiences, the sights, the moments, and THAT is my passion.. Not a picture and a cut off rack in my garage and me saying "i got my buck"... But i have that memory and that happening to remember forever..

To be honest i could not fill my buck tag another three years and not care.. I do not see any hunt as a failure, any season as a loss just because i didn't "arrow some bone"..... I enjoy the outdoors, I relish the hunt, and have just as much fun helping others as i do shooting one myself.. I have gotten out of my stand at 7:45 am to drive 10 minutes and help a buddy track and drag a doe he shot.. Why? We'll i consider that fun, i consider that hunting.. Never once did it cross my mind that getting down and helping him was a waste because Ole mossy horns might walk by when I'm gone... Nope.. I sir, unlike you, enjoy EVERY aspect of the hunt. However that is becoming increasingly difficult to do... When we have a dnr who is in many areas turning hunting into sitting in a stand and watching leaves fall for three days.. There comes a point when it's not hunting anymore and it's just sitting in a fuckin tree in the woods..

How hard is it for you to understand that killing a shitload of does will unquestionably reduce your buck population.. Do you think your bucks just fall from the sky? They come from does.. The same does the DNR is knocking the piss out of.. Don't worry about the asshole that shoots a BB they've done that forever and you still have quality bucks... Worry about the assholes shooting an extra 29% of your does where 14%-21% of them fawn your future bucks..