After

[Kaiser878]

Putting one methodology over another is foolish...(trust me, I've been there) I can guarandamntee that more deer are wounded during archery season than gun season - surely that must be worst for the herd - but I don't see any motions to get rid of bow hunting?!? ...oh yea, trust me...I've been there before.

The deer herd numbers is more of a complex issue and will never be solved by hunters pissing on other hunters because they don't like what they do.

No one is putting one method over another. His argument was on large drives consisting of lg quantities of people and just how effective they are.

As for more wounded during archery? Maybe, but archery is in for 4.5 months while gun is in for a total of two weeks counting Muzzy. Yet, I would argue the wounding rates are astonishingly equal.

 

[Lundy]

Brock,

As I stated the population reduction in my little area of Athens County could be an isolated occurrence, but I don't think so based upon the shots I heard during the week and the results (deer killed and seen)of some of the deer drives. I also have 20+ years experince of driving those backroads and looking at the deer. There are no where as many as there once were, at least in the areas I drive around and look.

You are also correct that the reduced population that I observed still provides for a higher population that many of the other areas of the state. The judgment of population reduction where I hunt is solely based upon benchmark populations of previous years. here in this area.

It may well be that the current population is closer to the population goal that the ODNR would like to see in this area, it could well be the new normal.

I do know that it is turning a blind eye to reality to believe that hunter harvest can not impact the deer heard population. The deer in my area are gone for only a few reasons. They die of natural causes, the recruitment is reduced due to predation, they die on the highways, or they are killed and maybe they elect to change where they live and move to new properties.

There are no highway changes or more being killed on the roads there. I know of nothing to increase the death by natural causes or disease unless there was an outbreak of EHD that I don't know about, and I think I would know. The coyote populations are ever increasing. I continue to see more does with 1 or none fawns every year. Then you add in an extremley high harvest rate in the immedaite area, that is already seeing the effects of the coyote predation, from the drives and you get exactly what I have been seeing the last few years, it is not a surprise to me.

I am guessing that the ODNR still believes that the population as a whole in Athens County is still above their established goals. I will call Tonk in March or April once I have completed all of the seasons and have given him time to get over the constant barrage of calls he must be getting now.

I also doubt that the ODNR is overly concerned about drives and the manner that many are conducted. If the population is still above their established goal they want deer killed. I am not saying the GW would ignore the violations if he witnessed them just saying they have other things to handle during the week.

There isn't a chance in hell that the hunters in these drives harvest the number of deer that they do if they had to obey the laws or hunt as individuals on their own, no chance. AGAIN these statements are based upon the groups around me that I can actually watch the before, during,and after, from a vantage point on the property I hunt.

 

[jagermeister]

No one is putting one method over another. His argument was on large drives consisting of lg quantities of people and just how effective they are.

As for more wounded during archery? Maybe, but archery is in for 4.5 months while gun is in for a total of two weeks counting Muzzy. Yet, I would argue the wounding rates are astonishingly equal.

Normally you and I are on the same page, Zach... but I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I don't think the wounding rates would even be close. You hear of so many SEASONED bowhunters wounding and losing deer... now add in all the weekend yayhoos that go out and don't even bother to practice. No way it's even close...

 

[bowhunter1023]

I'll refrain from commenting on the deer drives as I know both sides of the equation and I hate being lumped in with the bad eggs. Suffice it to say, the way I was brought up to drive deer is very effective and only takes 3-4-5 people to execute properly.

As for the deer numbers, it is a sad thing to witness. The reduction that is. I've seen more deer in a single late season bowhunt 5-6 years ago than I saw all week. There is absolutely no denying that are deer herd is getting POUNDED down here and it continues to get worse. The EHD, blue tongue, coyotes, and seemingly endless supply of tags have taken out what I estimate to be 70%+ of the deer in the areas I hunt since 2006. I sure hope some changes are made in Columbus because I can't keep dumping the time and money I do in to this passion is the regs keep allowing the decimation of our deer herd to continue at this rate...

 

[Ohiosam]

I don't know if you can really compare wounding rates between different hunting methods. With so many hunters out during gun season a deer wounded by one gun hunter is probably more likely to be finished/found by another gun hunter then with archery woundings. The other issue is I don't know the mortality rates of deer hit in any given (less then ideal) location with a bullet vs a broadhead.

I know both gun and bow hunters that have a knack of wounding deer regularly. However I'd say when comparing EXPERIENCED hunters I know the bowhunters have a slightly higher rate of rate of wounding just because there is so little room for mistakes with an arrow. And I do know some bowhunters that rarely wound.

 

[cotty16]

When I first started hunting serious in the ealry 90's (my high school years), we had action. It was very rare to sit without seeing at least one deer in a 3 hour span. Back then I had no clue what I was doing strategically, but saw deer.

Regardless of the tactic used to harvest deer, the bottom line is there are too many tags available and that is leading to the population destruction. And now they are thinking about "earning a buck"? That is completely asinine. Take my family, for example...
Both boys and myself would have to shoot a doe before we could hunt a buck? We will never eat that many deer in my house. That's a waste! We also do not desire to kill that many deer.
Hell, the way this season has gone, we may not have earned the buck yet.

 

[Kaiser878]

Normally you and I are on the same page, Zach... but I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I don't think the wounding rates would even be close. You hear of so many SEASONED bowhunters wounding and losing deer... now add in all the weekend yayhoos that go out and don't even bother to practice. No way it's even close...

Maybe ur rt. I don't know. I guess I physically see more deer wounded after gun season. Like broken or shot off legs. Or deer shot in the hams of the thigh. Then again the.neighboring land owner to one of my farms allows his son in law to.hunt and he wounded several good bucks in the last 3 years with a bow. When.I say several I.mean more than 5.

 

[Jackalope]

Brock and I said years ago that It will take longer to show up in some areas depending on hunting pressure and initial population; but eventually everyone would see it. Really it doesn't matter what's causing it. Predation, vehicles, disease etc. There is only one thing within our ability to control. Hunting. And until something changes and changes in a hurry at the DNR everyone might as well get used to it and expect it to get far worse.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Brock,

As I stated the population reduction in my little area of Athens County could be an isolated occurrence, but I don't think so based upon the shots I heard during the week and the results (deer killed and seen)of some of the deer drives. I also have 20+ years experince of driving those backroads and looking at the deer. There are no where as many as there once were, at least in the areas I drive around and look.

You are also correct that the reduced population that I observed still provides for a higher population that many of the other areas of the state. The judgment of population reduction where I hunt is solely based upon benchmark populations of previous years. here in this area.

It may well be that the current population is closer to the population goal that the ODNR would like to see in this area, it could well be the new normal.

I do know that it is turning a blind eye to reality to believe that hunter harvest can not impact the deer heard population. The deer in my area are gone for only a few reasons. They die of natural causes, the recruitment is reduced due to predation, they die on the highways, or they are killed and maybe they elect to change where they live and move to new properties.

There are no highway changes or more being killed on the roads there. I know of nothing to increase the death by natural causes or disease unless there was an outbreak of EHD that I don't know about, and I think I would know. The coyote populations are ever increasing. I continue to see more does with 1 or none fawns every year. Then you add in an extremley high harvest rate in the immedaite area, that is already seeing the effects of the coyote predation, from the drives and you get exactly what I have been seeing the last few years, it is not a surprise to me.

I am guessing that the ODNR still believes that the population as a whole in Athens County is still above their established goals. I will call Tonk in March or April once I have completed all of the seasons and have given him time to get over the constant barrage of calls he must be getting now.

I also doubt that the ODNR is overly concerned about drives and the manner that many are conducted. If the population is still above their established goal they want deer killed. I am not saying the GW would ignore the violations if he witnessed them just saying they have other things to handle during the week.

There isn't a chance in hell that the hunters in these drives harvest the number of deer that they do if they had to obey the laws or hunt as individuals on their own, no chance. AGAIN these statements are based upon the groups around me that I can actually watch the before, during,and after, from a vantage point on the property I hunt.

Congratulations, Kim! You are the first person hunting the Athens area that I have heard take note of a reduction in deer numbers. You are seeing, and saying exactly the same things I was 5 years ago. The herd reduction in my area (Fayette, northern Highland) was evident very early, I suspect due to the low overall population. I tried to explain it to Mrex like this; If I drive past areas or hunt where I am used to seeing three or four deer, and I see NOTHING, it is obvious. If you do the same in the Athens area where you are used to seeing 20 and only see 10, do you really notice the decline? I don't think so because you are still seeing SOME.

Predation is a much bigger factor than I think the DOW has taken into account. I am no longer associated in any way with BuckEyeCam, but I will give them due credit for being an unbelievable tool to inventory what is happening on a given property. I ran several of them, for several years, and it was painfully apparent what an impact coyotes can have on a deer herd. We saw more coyotes than deer the last several years I ran BECs, and we saw 3 adult deer for every fawn. That is not an indicator of a population being able to sustain itself with liberal bag limits. You can't expect to see deer when they are being killed at a higher rate (both human and predator) than they are recruited. The bright side is that I think I have stumbled onto a method of helping the fawns....kill the coyotes as they start to den. It seems to me that denning yotes do not seek out new areas, and if you are able to kill off the local yotes at that critical time of year, you give the fawns a much better chance at survival. I base that on only one year's observation, but I saw more fawns this season than I have see in years! Several with two, and a few with three, almost all had at least one fawn in tow. I really was amazed at what I saw, and I really think it had a lot to do with the effort I put in back in February and March. It is something I plan to continue doing annually.

The upside for your area is that the DOW did cut back the use of antlerless tags. By not allowing them during gun season, I would believe, and sincerely hope, the doe harvest in your area was limited compared to what it has been in recent years. I'm certain at this stage of the game you and I are similar, I don't need to ever KILL another deer, but I do like to SEE them! Thankfully, for now, I feel like my farm(s) have turned the corner. I saw more deer this year than I have in a long time, I saw some really good bucks, and my son never went to the stand this season without seeing deer. The last point is huge, as he had become accustomed to seeing a deer every three or four hunts. To him, the "good ole days" are now, thankfully. I can only hope our situation will continue to improve, and hope your's does not reach the level our's did before changes are made.

 

[mrex]

Here’s an interesting Athens Co statistic. Strouds Run Campground Gun Week Occupancy for the past 10 years.

The previous years occupancy was included in the bid packet my wife received from the state.

(80 slips total)

Year - # of rented slips:

2003 – 67
2004 - 59
2005 – 58
2006 – 42
2007 – 44
2008 – 31
2009 – 35
2010 – 27
2011 – 19
2012 – 12


What I'm seeing in my area is a dramatic shift from gun hunting to archery. This might partially explain why the statewide harvest was up 63.57% through the first 60 days which included Monday and Tuesday of gun week. My son helped to pad the archery numbers a little yesterday as he just said "no" to gun season.

My boys have been hell on the 9 points this year!

 

[jagermeister]

Here’s an interesting Athens Co statistic. Strouds Run Campground Gun Week Occupancy for the past 10 years.

The previous years occupancy was included in the bid packet my wife received from the state.

(80 slips total)

Year - # of rented slips:

2003 – 67
2004 - 59
2005 – 58
2006 – 42
2007 – 44
2008 – 31
2009 – 35
2010 – 27
2011 – 19
2012 – 12

What I'm seeing in my area is a dramatic shift from gun hunting to archery. This might partially explain why the statewide harvest was up 63.57% through the first 60 days which included Monday and Tuesday of gun week. My son helped to pad the archery numbers a little yesterday as he just said "no" to gun season.


My boys have been hell on the 9 points this year!

Well I'll be darned.... :smiley_chinrub:

All I'm saying is I think there are less total gun-hunting hours of effort being put forth now than what we've seen in years past. Decreased effort results in decreased kill numbers... and theoretically may result in less overall sightings, due to reduced pushing.

Are the numbers down? Most likely. Are the decreased gun harvest numbers simply the result of there being fewer deer? I don't think so... I think there's more to it than that.

 

[brock ratcliff]

I have no doubt there is a switch in "pressure days". Opening day of shotgun season does not seem to be near the circus even around here that it once was. Still, we have four weekend days of shotgun season, why would anyone with limited time off work and even basic woodsmanship take off a day when there are four weekend days to kill a deer with a shotgun? The final tally is what will be most telling IMO.

There is no argument to be had here IMO. There is no doubt in my mind that there are less deer in areas. I saw it, and said it several years ago only to be told I was a fool. Now others, all over the state seem to be seeing it too, and yet still others think they too are foolish. People don't start crying they are seeing less deer for no reason, and it isn't the acorns, weather, or any other nonsense. There are less deer. The problem as I see it, and where the frustration comes from, is the DOW's refusal to acknowledge that fact, and make adjustments accordingly. Granted, Fayette and Madison were reduced, but half a dozen counties just like them were moved into zone b, what's the goal there? Do those similar counties have to be wiped out as Fayette was? Just doesn't seem like good planning from my vantage...And I fully understand NO ONE cares about what I see but me.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Congratulations to Corey, Mike!

 

[hickslawns]

Granted, Fayette and Madison were reduced, but half a dozen counties just like them were moved into zone b, what's the goal there? Do those similar counties have to be wiped out as Fayette was? Just doesn't seem like good planning from my vantage...And I fully understand NO ONE cares about what I see but me.

Let's not forget it happened in waves. 6 added last year, but there were a bunch more added (maybe 11 counties?) a year or two before that. I couldn't believe when Allen and Auglaize were moved to Zone B. I was more surprised when reading of the six additional last year. Crazy.

Congrats to your son MRex. Fine buck right there.

 

[xbowguy]

Yes, send Congrat's to Corey mrex. That is one fine looking picture!

 

[Ohiosam]

Mike, Congrats to your kid and you...great buck!

 

[cotty16]

Helluva buck for your son Mike! Congrats to him

 

[Boone]

What I'm seeing in my area is a dramatic shift from gun hunting to archery. This might partially explain why the statewide harvest was up 63.57% through the first 60 days which included Monday and Tuesday of gun week. My son helped to pad the archery numbers a little yesterday as he just said "no" to gun season.

Congrats to your son on a great buck.

The way I read the 11/12 harvest comparison report, we are up 63.57% because the sixty day numbers this year include Monday and Tuesday of gun season, but sixty days last year starting from beginning of bow season on 9/24 would take you to 11/22/11, the week prior to gun season last year. This weeks report should include all of the week long gun season this year and the first two days, Monday and Tuesday, of last year. So, the weekly report still won't present a similar comparison, with both full gun week numbers, until it is released on the 12th. Right?

 

[Jackalope]

Well I'll be darned.... :smiley_chinrub:

All I'm saying is I think there are less total gun-hunting hours of effort being put forth now than what we've seen in years past. Decreased effort results in decreased kill numbers... and theoretically may result in less overall sightings, due to reduced pushing.

Are the numbers down? Most likely. Are the decreased gun harvest numbers simply the result of there being fewer deer? I don't think so... I think there's more to it than that.

As I mentioned in the other thread before you said that too..

Percent Does killed 2003 compared to 2010 Vertical BOW = +258% (9,537 / 24,615)
Percent Does killed 2003 compared to 2010 CROSSBOW = +193% (12,639 / 24,458)


Lets look at what Tonk said...

2003 DNR Article.. "Approximately 450,000 hunters are expected to participate in this year's statewide deer-gun season that begins Monday, December 1, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife."
Source..

2012 DNR Article.. "Approximately 420,000 hunters are expected to participate in this year’s season, including many out-of-state hunters."
Source.

That's a -7.67% decrease in participation. If we factor in the standard 33% success rate for that lost 30,000, that's 9,900 successful hunters we lost since 2003..

Looking at the harvest numbers for gun.
115,283 in 2003 Seven Day Gun
86,964 in 2012 Seven Day Gun
-28,319 less deer..

9,900 lost successful hunters would not equate to a harvest loss of -28K deer. Unless those hunters all killed 3+ deer in 2003..

Add in Bonus gun and we get closer. It's a loss of 8,264 deer... assuming it's the same participants, or at least those who didn't score during regular gun.

Now we might be on to something and within a margin of error. A loss of 9,900 successful hunters from 2003 could equate to a loss of 8,264 deer a combined gun season. Still down. But not by much. And within what I would expect to see with that loss.

So indeed.. The loss of hunters during gun could very well explain the loss in harvest. However the overall numbers of licensed hunters in general have dropped by about the same amount. I wouldn't say it's because they switched to archery. We just have less hunters. But not much.

But there's a problem, Archery is showing a +26K increase in kills. Almost a 221% increase since 2003.

The data we don't have from 2003 is how many hours is it taking guys to kill a deer? In 2003 it could have taken 8.. In 2012 maybe 16. There in will lay our answer. But in reality we don't need math to know the population is down significantly.. Take a peek at the DNRs Facebook page where they posted the season totals.. About 95% of them are screaming about it being the worst gun season they've ever seen. 4-5 years ago when Brock and I first said this there we're very very few who agreed.. Most laughed.. Now just 4 short years later we have no shortage of company on this side of the fence. Some of them were adamant that we were nuts 4 years ago.. It is an undeniable fact that the population has been reduced in ever expanding areas to where people are getting mad..

 

[brock ratcliff]

I'm just glad others are seeing it. Hopefully, with more than a few bringing it up now, the DOW will pay attention.