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Buck/doe ratio

Fletch

Senior Member
Supporting Member
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118
Alot of good thoughts on maintaining and growing a good deer herd... As Nick just stated the biggest obstacle is having neighbors on the same page as you... Even if you have 1000 acres your bucks aren't staying on it... Yes it may be a bucks home range, but during pre-rut he's looking for putang and gonna travel up to several miles looking for a doe till he finds one... During this time out in Illinois we get pics of the same buck on a farm several miles apart... Unfortunately this is something you can't stop... Another thing which can create a hot debate is button bucks... Not getting into this debate.... BUT... Masons buck of a life time ONCE WAS A BUTTON BUCK... So if you gotta shoot one, you should have to tag it with your buck tag....
 
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giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Alot of good thoughts on maintaining and growing a good deer herd... As Nick just stated the biggest obstacle is having neighbors on the same page as you... Even if you have 1000 acres your bucks aren't staying on it... Yes it may be a bucks home range, but during pre-rut he's looking for putang and gonna travel up to several miles looking for a doe till he finds one... During this time out in Illinois we get pics of the same buck on a farm several miles apart... Unfortunately this is something you can't stop... Another thing which can create a hot debate is button bucks... Not getting into this debate.... BUT... Masons buck of a life time ONCE WAS A BUTTON BUCK... So if you gotta shoot one, you should have to tag it with your buck tag....
So screw every meat hunter because of you trophy hunters? I would say that 70% of buttons killed, the shooter didn't know until they rolled the animal over.
 

Bowkills

Well-Known Member
2,577
85
Nw oh
Alot of good thoughts on maintaining and growing a good deer herd... As Nick just stated the biggest obstacle is having neighbors on the same page as you... Even if you have 1000 acres your bucks aren't staying on it... Yes it may be a bucks home range, but during pre-rut he's looking for putang and gonna travel up to several miles looking for a doe till he finds one... During this time out in Illinois we get pics of the same buck on a farm several miles apart... Unfortunately this is something you can't stop... Another thing which can create a hot debate is button bucks... Not getting into this debate.... BUT... Masons buck of a life time ONCE WAS A BUTTON BUCK... So if you gotta shoot one, you should have to tag it with your buck tag....
That things buttons would have netted 35 inches after deductions....
 

at1010

*Supporting Member*
4,972
139
The average bucks home range is a square mile - 640 acres. There of course is a variance in shape of land and all, but if you have a 1000 acres - you can do some incredible things with the local deer herd. Let me put it another way, if you had a chance to buy 50 acres that butted up to 1000 acres of "no hunting" - how would you anticipate the hunting to be on that 50 acre piece? I know I would be excepting it to be a very target rich environment. No property (even if it is fenced) can promise a specific buck to grow year over year but the more acreage that is properly managed, increases the likelihood of more bucks to chase. Neighbors of course have an impact but I don't think it should be the determining factor in your plan or goals - hell a lot of big deer are killed on public ground every year in Ohio and that is just based on a buck's drive to survive. My point, don't let the fact that you own 10,15,50 or 150 deter you from your goals. At the same time, have fun and shoot what makes you happy.

As for does and the impact we can have on the herd - I think we need to evaluate this based on overall habitat manipulation and available nutritional browse and/or hunting opportunities for bucks. These are vastly different discussions, IMO.

I highly trust Mississippi State Deer Lab. Dr. Bronson Strickland and Dr. Steve Demaris have written books on this, as well as done several podcasts that are super detailed into the science of whitetail deer and what makes them grow larger bodies and racks.

The items we can control 1. Age 2. Available nutrition

The MSU deer lab has shown the genetics don't play much of a role but much more so the epigenetic triggers that are switched on/off when a deer is eating the highest quality diet for his/her area. This then passes to the off spring, and the cycle continues. This can be somewhat counterintuitive from a herd management perspective, because as you increase the quality of the habitat doe fawns increase likelihood of hitting estrous the first year, which means they can get bred, which in turn, equates to more mouths to feed next year. Without some type of herd reduction or more food, in time you are going to see habitat degrade - and so goes the cycle.

So in conclusion, I think we need to decide what we want to manage for, deer health or hunting opportunities. I do believe there is a good mesh point where they both coexist but where the basis of our management ideology starts, I believe this is an important fact to distinguish.
 

Fletch

Senior Member
Supporting Member
6,067
118
So screw every meat hunter because of you trophy hunters? I would say that 70% of buttons killed, the shooter didn't know until they rolled the animal over.
I told you a discussion on button bucks could get heated.... I'm not telling you what to shoot or what not to shoot so that I can get a trophy... If you wanna shoot it, shoot it... With all the does running around along with inferior bucks your telling me you can't fill your freezer... Come on... As for identifying whether a deer is a button or not.... You have binos??? If still not sure, just don't shoot... Hopefully Masons buck passed on his genes for years to come... Maybe he impregnated one of the does on their property and his genes will carry on... That fawn gets shot next Oct. And there goes the bloodlines.... Hey you can come back at me and say in Nov. that pregnant doe can get shot and that will end the bloodline.... Come on say it... Like I said to shoot a button buck or not is totally up to you... I'm just stating my opinion on trying to get a healthy deer herd with quality bucks on a piece of property... Believe me I know I'll have no likes at the bottom of this post, but that's ok....
 

Mike

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
15,847
223
Up Nort
"He Got it From His Mama
One of the most overlooked facets when it comes judging the quality of a buck’s rack is the role of the doe. It makes sense why we might think that a buck can only inherit antler traits from his father, but this isn’t so. Not only does the mother influence her son’s antlers environmentally, but she contributes to them genetically as well. Believe it or not, a doe can have an even greater genetic impact on her son’s antlers than the sire.

According to Ditchkoff, antlers are genetically determined but environmentally influenced. While genetic distribution is a combined input from both parents, when it comes to environmental persuasions, the doe bears most, if not all, the responsibility. There are several key environmental pressures that can compromise a buck’s antler growth. Some begin in fetal development."
 

Spencie

Senior Member
5,046
145
Constitution Ohio
Our neighbors that own good amounts of property are on the same page as us. It’s the lot owners that have a house and less than an acre with a corn pile out back that ruin our deer management.
 
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giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
"He Got it From His Mama
One of the most overlooked facets when it comes judging the quality of a buck’s rack is the role of the doe. It makes sense why we might think that a buck can only inherit antler traits from his father, but this isn’t so. Not only does the mother influence her son’s antlers environmentally, but she contributes to them genetically as well. Believe it or not, a doe can have an even greater genetic impact on her son’s antlers than the sire.

According to Ditchkoff, antlers are genetically determined but environmentally influenced. While genetic distribution is a combined input from both parents, when it comes to environmental persuasions, the doe bears most, if not all, the responsibility. There are several key environmental pressures that can compromise a buck’s antler growth. Some begin in fetal development."
You beat me to it.
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
No joke, being honest here. @Fletch have you ever thought about a high fence hunt? Sounds like that us exactly what you want, minus the fence. Could be a ton cheaper to just pay for the hunt and be way less stress and anger involved. If you are hunting for pure sport and antlers, go to the place that provides it.
 
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triple_duece

Ragin Cajun.
9,177
159
I quit killing does five years ago also. Thanks Giles I forgot to mention that.
So there are many factors on having a healthy herd of deer. Age structure, meaning every year class of deer represented. Cover, food, water and sanctuary all important stuff. You will never see a 1 to 1 ratio in the free lands (not high fenced). In all if your land can supply food, cover and water there is no need to thin the herd.
 

Isaacorps

Member
5,248
145
Columbus
This is a great conversation. Lots of good anecdotal information. It's interesting to see what different folks see on their different properties. So, anecdotally, I will share my experience. This is the first year I have hunted the property. It is 15 acres, a lot of thick bedding with ag on 2 sides, road frontage on one, and contiguous woods on the other. Being the first year I've hunted it, I was largely looking to get an inventory and start to develop an understanding of how the deer use it. Cams placed in mid summer showed that it was definitely holding does. I confirmed 3 separate family units that were using it as "home", 2 does with twins and 1 with triplets. My goal was to not kill any does this year and see what the neighbors were doing hunting-wise. From what I can tell from the cams, nobody is really in the doe killing business in the neighborhood. They all made it through all seasons as of last weekend (except the yearling I killed during gun season). If only the mature does were bred and have fawns in the spring, I will begin to be overrun. Next season will be herd reduction mode pending what I see from the fawn drop. From my small understanding of herd numbers, buck/doe ratio, and how much a certain piece of ground can support, I don't want to over burden the property as far as what it can support. Now, being that the property is largely used as bedding and travel, I don't think there is much browse pressure on it. Especially with the close proximity of ag and large woods.

That being said, the property doesn't hold a lot of "resident" bucks. What if have noticed is that around mid October through rut, there was a parade of bucks coming through with regularity. Presumably to check for hot does that they knew were residing there. This would lend itself to the "hold does and the bucks will come" theory. The trick, I think, will be figuring out how to maintain the balance of how many is enough. Alas, that is the fun part, right? Anyway, that has been my observation.
 

Fletch

Senior Member
Supporting Member
6,067
118
No joke, being honest here. @Fletch have you ever thought about a high fence hunt? Sounds like that us exactly what you want, minus the fence. Could be a ton cheaper to just pay for the hunt and be way less stress and anger involved. If you are hunting for pure sport and antlers, go to the place that provides it.
Wow Dave..... You really don't know me.... I DONT HAVE TO KILL A DEER TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL YEAR.... I would never go on a high fenced hunt...
I enjoy hunting I don't have to put a deer on the wall... Sure I enjoy getting a wall hanger, but I was taught how to read sign and harvest a deer totally by fair chase methods... Maybe one day I'll get one to hang on the wall....
 

triple_duece

Ragin Cajun.
9,177
159
Wow Dave..... You really don't know me.... I DONT HAVE TO KILL A DEER TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL YEAR.... I would never go on a high fenced hunt...
I enjoy hunting I don't have to put a deer on the wall... Sure I enjoy getting a wall hanger, but I was taught how to read sign and harvest a deer totally by fair chase methods... Maybe one day I'll get one to hang on the wall....
But, but, but it’s so much easier to pick the deer out that you want to kill 😂
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Wow Dave..... You really don't know me.... I DONT HAVE TO KILL A DEER TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL YEAR.... I would never go on a high fenced hunt...
I enjoy hunting I don't have to put a deer on the wall... Sure I enjoy getting a wall hanger, but I was taught how to read sign and harvest a deer totally by fair chase methods... Maybe one day I'll get one to hang on the wall....
I was trying to save you money. $500,000 for land and a very slim chance, or $20,000 and get what you want. For years you have talked about how you won't kill a doe or small buck. Sounds like a high fence place would fit you best. If a giant is a dream for you, go fill it. We ain't getting any younger. I'm not being negative here. He'll, my dad has a replica dream deer on his wall because he always wanted one. So he went out and bought one. It also unexpectedly became his last year of hunting. So he got to fill that spot on his wall and look at it.
 

Fletch

Senior Member
Supporting Member
6,067
118
Killing a small buck or a doe just doesn't float my boat.... I have nothing against you or any other hunter shooting what you want.... I'm not some elitist that thinks I'm better than you.... We put our pants on the same way... One leg at a time... If anything I try and help others... One of my most memorable hunts I was sitting home having a cold beer when my phone beeped... Turned out to be a former TOO member that I set up out in Illinois... He just shot a very nice buck and was on cloud nine... I think my expression was a very loud YES... Even my wife asked if I hit the lottery...I was happy as anything for him.... How many times have I asked members to come hunt bears and I'd set them up... For someone to shoot a bear from TOO would give me more pleasure than if I shot it... So please don't classify me as some elitest that just cares about himself as I'm not.... Oh all the deer I have on my wall??? Check out ebay...
 

Bighoun52

Active Member
562
53
In the woods
I think social pressure can do a ton to hurt antler development. We have a fairly large tract in pa, and when we bought it deer numbers were low. But our bucks that were of the right age range were very impressive for pa, couple 150-160s. Have owned the property for 10 years now and the deer numbers have been climbing every year. And we have seen on average our antler size go down a little every year. We went all out this year killing does. Think we ended up taking 23 off the property but I don’t think it made much of a dent. Think it’s going to take a couple years of that to get back to where we are 3-1 at the best on doe to bucks ratio. Guess the take away there is that numbers can get out of hand fairly fast
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Killing a small buck or a doe just doesn't float my boat.... I have nothing against you or any other hunter shooting what you want.... I'm not some elitist that thinks I'm better than you.... We put our pants on the same way... One leg at a time... If anything I try and help others... One of my most memorable hunts I was sitting home having a cold beer when my phone beeped... Turned out to be a former TOO member that I set up out in Illinois... He just shot a very nice buck and was on cloud nine... I think my expression was a very loud YES... Even my wife asked if I hit the lottery...I was happy as anything for him.... How many times have I asked members to come hunt bears and I'd set them up... For someone to shoot a bear from TOO would give me more pleasure than if I shot it... So please don't classify me as some elitest that just cares about himself as I'm not.... Oh all the deer I have on my wall??? Check out ebay...
I feel like you will go back and read my post in a different view some day. Something is getting lost in translation here...
 
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Fletch

Senior Member
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6,067
118
Don't know what county you hunt but I was born and raised in Southwestern Pa... Westmoreland County to be exact... Back then you were lucky to go out and shoot a spike.... Gary Alt implemented Antler Restrictions years ago and now there's some very nice bucks getting harvested each year... When he started them he was getting death threats... Now everyone is happy... I believe Westmoreland is 4 points to a side.... But I agree too many does can effect the over all herd...
 

Fletch

Senior Member
Supporting Member
6,067
118
I feel like you will go back and read my post in a different view some day. Something is getting lost in translation here...
Nope.... Only someone with buckets of cash goes to a fenced hunt and pays $20,000 to shoot a pet deer to put it on their wall... Then when having a New Years party he tells the story to fellow bankers how he laid on the frozen tundra for hours in sub zero temps while being pelted by freezing rain... This is some elitist bullshit artist which I am not... I worked hard for every deer I put on the wall spending hours on EBAY so I could win the auction.... I'm done here as I got 5 more inches of snow last night to go clean...