Does It Make a Difference When You Shoot Does?

[Bowhunter57]

I've always waited until after I shoot a buck, before I start shooting does. Does are a "buck magnet" and as long as they're in the area, so are the bucks. (Just my thoughts) In my home area, this is how/when I choose to shoot does.

In other areas that I hunt, I won't hesitate to shoot does, throughout the hunting season. This type of selective shooting, doesn't seem to alter the bucks' behavior in that area.

Do you think it makes a difference, when does are shot during the season, as it effects the bucks' behavior?

 

[Tipmoose]

Not unless you shoot one heck of a lot of does. I think your presence in the hunting area has more impact on the bucks.

EDIT
Let me rephrase...yes killing does has an effect on buck behavior. But not because the does are dead. Its because you were there and shot the does, trailed the does, drug the does out, and left your scent as you did all of that.

 

[Jackalope]

Every buck fell.out of a does vagina. Killing does always has an impact, sometimes that impact is just never seen.

 

[Bowhunter57]

@Tipmoose
I have to agree with you on this one. I've read a lot of deer biologists' behavioral studies and human presence in the deer woods is a huge influence on how it effects their travels.

I've passed up a lot of shot opportunities on some decent sized does and now I'm wondering if I should've just taken those shots. Now, the bucks are chasing those same does and have traveled out of the area. I think they'll be back, but meanwhile, I'm spending a lot of "dead" tree time sitting and waiting on their return.

 

[gjs4]

Its totally circumstantial . If you have a buck:doe ratio thats out of whack, yes. In wNY where we hunt there may be 50-60 deer in a field and 6-8 are bucks. Even if you killed 10 or 15 of the does, it wouldn't change things up. If you hunt KS where the number is even, those bucks roam far and wide, and fight with vigor over does. Think ladies night at a bar. If there are 50 drunk girls, most dudes that walk in will walk out with one in no time....and offer a little window to see it happen.

Female kill takes/goals are used to control the overall population by the state agency.

Does throw more doe fawns in areas where the carrying capacity of the environment supports the population growing.

Here are some other considerations- does the crime scene or gut pile impact your property. Is it bringing predators and scavengers in. Laugh if you want, but i do not gut kills where i hunt and will often do so on the most people laden, nondeer occupied area of property....While I dont think death scares them, i do think they recognize people who are a threat from those who arent. Not sure if scent memory is part of this but its what i am trying to prevent whether a reality or not.

Another one, and seeing it running feeders for the first time, is the more deer in an area the less older bucks (out of velvet) that seem to be there. Social pressure- "old bull, young bull" deal.

if you have too many does, stack them in one massive event and let the future take course. I dont think does for bait during chase phase is a good strategy as movement and bedding locations vary wildly. I also tend to shoot does coming/going from hunting neighbors at any given time..... as that perfume can get resident bucks smoked elsewhere.


Just my $0.02

 

[Bowhunter57]

@gjs4
I like your analogy of the buck to doe ratio.
* As far as what the state wants, I could care less....a lot less. I think everyone on this forum knows that their priorities are in their azz. They're all about what the Insurance Commission is paying them.
* I try to have as little "impact" on the property as possible, when it comes to removing a dead deer. My presence alone is enough impact on their behavior.
* Your observation of less older bucks in a high population area....I'm not so sure about that one. I have physically taken photos of 11 bucks in my home area and 5 of them had antlers out past their ears by late July. Another reason why I hesitate to shoot does in this area is that I don't physically see as many of them.
* I don't, in any way, feed the deer. The closest I come to feed is if (on a rare occasion) I pop a couple bags of butter flavored microwave popcorn, take it with me and sprinkle it around my stand area...which varies....I move around a lot. I've done this more for scent distraction, than feed, as the squirrels and coons seem to find/eat it. It absolutely does mess with their nose and they never catch my scent when I'm using it.
* Lastly.... I agree with your "does for bait" not being a valid concern. A doe in heat happens in such a small window of opportunity and it's wildly unpredictable.

I feel like I may have past up some good shooting opportunities to put some meat in the freezer. I'm sure they'll be back around....and I won't be passing any good shots this time.

 

[Stressless]

My neighbor Cliff and I just talked out this in our area. The doe harvest in the surrounding 4/5's or our adjoining land is zero. Thats no does shot on a couple thousand acres.

We have to slaughter does to keep in some kind of balance/ratio/carrying capacity in almost exclusively canopied hard woods. When to do it, as stated is opinionated, there is the 'best' time(keep and hold core bucks, make a buck travel further for does(more opportunities), find and tend a hot doe, (best based on ???)).

This year we're concentrated on next week, gun season, I didn't see a buck I wanted to shoot in the pre-rut/rut, but had 2 or 3 around on/the property pre-rut and they vanished as soon as the does really stared popping. We took 2 does in the last day we wanted to hunt a specific area. Neighbor Cliff took a 150+ plus pre-rut then 2 does...
Bringing in 2 more family guns and Cliffs bringing in three, we hope to remove 16-20 1.5+yo does from 600 acres this season, 4 down so far with bows. With 5 guns and yes, bait for doe meat, it should be done by Tues AM. Some of that checks the Easiest and Convenient boxs. Best is just a game of 'Go'.

Best time (to have buck movement?) With so many does on the properties, finding one ready isn't making the bucks travel very far, so one thought is shoot does early on, >12 Oct, then get out of the woods until 25ish Oct, foe the prerut walkabouts, or a patternable buck emerges. Less does more travel.

Conversely removing breeding age does from you property prior to prerut will allow bucks to case it quickly and remove your property from their cruising areas as they already know it's not 'drunk ladies night' there as @gjs4 mentioned.

We're not hunting bucks next week but if a mature buck wanders into the live fire range he'll get smashed on my parcel, neighbor Cliff, any buck is a $300 trigger pull and will not be invited back.

So my take, its a situationally based game time call on when is 'best' for your environment and hunting outcomes.

 

[Reagan]

I try to bow kill a doe early. I have rules for it. I try to shoot a lone doe in an easy access area. Nothing too deep into the woods so recovering is less disturbing.

My doe this year damn near ran into my yard before she fell. No disturbance at all.

I was seeing more bucks before peak estrus. Things got real slow into November. I think the bucks don’t have a to work too hard to find love. Maybe more for thinning is needed but I only have 2 tags in this county.

 

[Robert502]

The more does on an area the less a buck has to travel around looking for does to breed. Does need to be killed to have a good herd.

 

[Jackalope]

The more does on an area the less a buck has to travel around looking for does to breed. Does need to be killed to have a good herd.

One could argue however the less does there are the fewer bucks will fall out of their hind end. That doe may be the lady that gives birth to your next booner.

 

[Robert502]

Any QDMA organization will advocate you kill more does than bucks. When you have too many does they all aren’t dropping 160” bucks on the ground. If that was the case nobody would shoot does.

 

[Jackalope]

Any QDMA organization will advocate you kill more does than bucks. When you have too many does they all aren’t dropping 160” bucks on the ground. If that was the case nobody would shoot does.

They all arent dropping 160s, but every 160 dropped out of a does vagina. I guess the trick would be to know wich doe is going to produce the 160 you're going to kill in 4 years and not kill her today.

QDMA may work for 30,000 acre Texas ranches but not small distributed parcels in ohio where management styles within a half mile range from unhunted land to completely pillaged.

 

[Tipmoose]

QDMA may work for 30,000 acre Texas ranches but not small distributed parcels in ohio where management styles within a half mile range from unhunted land to completely pillaged.

That statement's gonna knot some knickers. lol

 

[5Cent]

That statement's gonna knot some knickers. lol

But it's true. 1/2 mile, shoot, there's 6 different owners in that 1/2 mile range up here, and all of us have different takes on why we deer hunt and what they are looking to do that season. None of us are on the same page, so go hunting and have fun

 

[Clay Showalter]

One could argue however the less does there are the fewer bucks will fall out of their hind end. That doe may be the lady that gives birth to your next booner.

Exactly how I feel.

 

[at1010]

I want to start with - I don’t care what anyone shoots, as long as you’re happy.

the idea on when/if to shoot does comes down to deer density and the available nutrition available across the landscape.

we cannot take the idea of “a buck fell out of a doe” as reason to shoot or not to shoot.

what we do know is
1. A buck born to a doe lacking fat stores or late in year (doe fawn birth of buck in high dpsm areas with degrading habitat) is almost always behind other bucks in the same cohort

2. We do know that bucks born in high dpsm over time, in degraded habitat, will not express their genetic potential or weight potential. Specifically because of nutrition but also because of epigenetic triggers within the deer.

3. There is some science out there that shows in some cervids - you’ll see more buck fawns born -
In high nutrient lush areas. It’s a biological response to wanting to grow the population - but can only be triggered if/when nutrients are available. This is mostly a theory for whitetails but has been proven in Red Deer. Although when all data is aggregated we still end up near 50/50 off spring distribution across entire whitetail landscape.

in summary - if you have a lot of does, shoot them when they are broadside, don’t worry about time of year. If you can- talk with neighbors and ask them what their goals are, adjust accordingly. I’ve had great success with this on properties all over the state. Shoot what makes you happy but don’t shoot a deer because “the neighbors would” -
Even on public a lot of these deer make it! Your neighbor is not some elite hunter that’s going to kill all your bucks. If he is- ask him for tips!!

 

[Jackalope]

the idea on when/if to shoot does comes down to deer density and the available nutrition available across the landscape.

Agreed. I would conclude that most hunters have no idea what the carrying capacity of an area is, and it is likely far greater than most would think. I'd also conclude that in the overwhelming majority of Ohio, that's a hypothetical number. I'm not sure a person could realistically get their doe population to a detrimentally high level on their little parcel even if they tried, as there are far too many other factors at play. Mainly neighbors and surrounding hunting pressure.

Some of the largest bucks harvested in Ohio have come from very urban areas where hunting pressure is nill to nonexistent. Nobody is practicing QDMA where the ghetto buck was shot or where the eskers whack giants each year. The deer are left to their own devices and short of getting hit by a soccer mom on their way to the Columbus Zoo the does are safe.

I'm not saying there isn't science behind the logic of deer management. I'm saying that in the overwhelming majority of Ohio, and the vast majority of places where guys hunt, it's a pipe dream that would never apply to their parcel.

 

[at1010]

Agreed. I would conclude that most hunters have no idea what the carrying capacity of an area is, and it is likely far greater than most would think. I'd also conclude that in the overwhelming majority of Ohio, that's a hypothetical number. I'm not sure a person could realistically get their doe population to a detrimentally high level on their little parcel even if they tried, as there are far too many other factors at play. Mainly neighbors and surrounding hunting pressure.

Some of the largest bucks harvested in Ohio have come from very urban areas where hunting pressure is nill to nonexistent. Nobody is practicing QDMA where the ghetto buck was shot or where the eskers whack giants each year. The deer are left to their own devices and short of getting hit by a soccer mom on their way to the Columbus Zoo the does are safe.

I'm not saying there isn't science behind the logic of deer management. I'm saying that in the overwhelming majority of Ohio, and the vast majority of places where guys hunt, it's a pipe dream that would never apply to their parcel.

I cannot argue opinions. I can say that the reason deer in cities are getting large is simple - age.

I’ve managed or helped manage properties from 11 acres to 400+. Some with good neighbors and some not. I can’t count how many bucks I’ve tracked from one year to the next. We’ve seen doe numbers increase as well, simply by bettering habitat. Some properties we shot no does for years. Others we hammer.

if we simply went it with the “screw it, it don’t matter attitude” myself,friends and families hunting would be far less successful and enjoyable as it stands today.

many on here with small properties that seem to continue to manage, pass bucks and kill great ones year over year. I think that’s proof in the pudding.

 

[Tipmoose]

But it's true. 1/2 mile, shoot, there's 6 different owners in that 1/2 mile range up here, and all of us have different takes on why we deer hunt and what they are looking to do that season. None of us are on the same page, so go hunting and have fun

Oh absolutely it's true! The TDM group won't like it though.

 

[at1010]

I am a big advocate for qdm - I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone here. I also am a huge advocate for getting folks excited about land management.

if we applied this same idea of “f it- won’t matter” to all wildlife - we sure would be intotuble.

why treat invasives - if neighbors don’t, it won’t matter
why toss back a walleye full of eggs - others won’t- it don’t matter
Why plant buffer strips - others don’t, nitrogen is gunna run off anyways
Why worry about timber harvest techniques and/support such on public and private lands - it’s to small scale F it, don’t matter.

this is a very slippery slope. Now I am not saying everyone needs to aim to shoot 4 year olds. I don’t care shoot what makes you happy! Also, don’t try to dismiss a persons ambition because “it’s to small scale it don’t matter”. The combined aggregate does show to matter in life from wildlife mgt to investing monies - it compounds and does make a difference.

Hell or maybe I am just blindly optimistic.