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- Thread starter Ohiosam
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Schu72
Well-Known Member
While I find the bag limits to be ridiculous, I'm not sure they are the biggest factor in the decline of the rural herd. Most of the statistics I've seen show that the majority of successful hunters only harvest one deer (something like 75%). Those who harvest more than 3 were in the single digits. I think...anyway. I believe the additional gun days play the biggest role. Both from a harvest standpoint as well stressing the herd. When I started hunting there were 9 firearm days, 6 for gun and 3 for muzzy. Now there are 15; 2 youth, 7 gun, 2 bonus gun, and I think 4 for muzzy. That's 6 extra gun days that fall mostly on weekends. The deer are being chased with firearms from mid/late November through early/mid January.
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Harvest numbers for individuals aren't really telling as to total population of deer.
Consider this... Say you have 8,000 deer and you kill 2,000 a year.... It doesn't matter if you have 8,000 deer or 4,000 deer next year.. You can still kill 2,000 every year.. Well that is untill the population is 1,999.....
The only thing required for that to happen is people have to hunt twice as hard. Bait more, push more, go deeper in the woods.. But truth is, you only have half the deer you once did... IMO this is what's happening... This is also why I think that just a couple years ago bait was a tiny section on a wal mart shelf, and it's is now a giant row. Acorn rage, swamp donky, etc etc.. The stores are carrying more and more of it... It's exploded.. I think it's because it's not as easy to kill a deer as it was 4 years ago, and people are turning to more stuff to tip their odds.... The 75% that always kill one will likely always kill one.. It's just the difference of hunting 1 day and done, or 3 days and done.
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Schu72
Well-Known Member
Joe, I get that, but cutting the bag limit from 6 to 3 in zone C won't change much if the average hunter only kills 1 deer. With me you're preaching to the choir when it comes to over harvesting doe. I haven't taken a doe out of zone c in over 3 years. In 2009 I tool one in Summit (urban) and one off of west branch (portage Co). In 2010 I took two out of Summit (urban), this year I have one and she came off the controlled hunt at the plum. I am reluctant to take any off of any of the rural properties I hunt. I've completely changed my way of thinking and hunting antlerless deer over the last 5 or so years. I used to think I was helping by taking antlerless deer down home (Belmont Co.), not anymore. As long as I can find urban places to hunt that's where my slickheads will be tagged.
Ditto. Two places around here I hunt are urban & that's where I'll take a doe. The other spots that aren't urban, based on my sightings this season and even last, will certainly be buck only.
The urban population brings up a whole other conversation though. Hunter access to more of these opportunities... meaning we need more of it.
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I agree with the above that cutting the number of tags is not sufficient. I would really like to see the bonus gun weekend gone for starters! Another factor is that muzzleloaders are wildly popular these days. Add to that the fact the new inlines actually go off when the trigger is pulled, and muzzy season is way more lethal to deer than it was years ago. When I was a kid, Dad and I borrowed guns to use. Now, everyone has an inline and they are very effective killing tools! It is just a lot easier for the average deer hunter to actually KILL deer with so much opportunity to be in the field with firearms. BTW, bows have seen the same improvements as muzzleloaders. Once upon a time it took a lot of work to become efficient with archery tackle...not so much anymore.
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You're right.... The damage has been done... Reducing it to three tags wouldn't help a thing... Just as over harvest has lowered the numbers, the only thing that will raise them is under harvest.. We're to the point now where that would have to be ONE either sex tag for a year or so... Another option would be to split Ohio into a 88 county management plan with a certain amount of tags available for does/bucks in each county.. Close some counties to doe altogether for a year. And manage the doe population on a micro level after that.
What we have now is buy a tag and kill one where you want...
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Read this article a few month back in Outdoor Life and thought it would be worth posting the link. The article is titled "Are we killing too many does?"
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big-buck-zone/2011/08/are-we-killing-too-many-does
And another I just came across... "The Whitetail Depression"
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2011/08/whitetail-recession
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big-buck-zone/2011/08/are-we-killing-too-many-does
And another I just came across... "The Whitetail Depression"
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2011/08/whitetail-recession
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Is there a chance that we are seeing a decreased gun harvest because more people are bowhunting? I guess I am the minority here when I say it doesn't bother me to see a decreased deer herd. I don't need to go out and see 10 deer a hunt to feel successful . I know some areas have been hit especially hard but I don't think this is the end of Ohio's deer heard . A herd can handle a a annual harvest of almost 60% before you see a decrease in population. I know you all are probably gonna jump all over me but I don't see it as the end of the world if the overall herd size decreases some. I see our biggest problem as hunters is kill permits being thrown to anyone who asks, especially when most of the people whining about deer damage refuse to allow hunters to access their property
Everything keeps going to extreme examples. Like saying seeing 10 a sit. No one is saying that. But when you have weeks of no deer within the wheel house hunting 9 properties each over 80 acres there is an issue. If it were just me I would chalk it up to having a bad year but it isn't just me. It is ALOT of people.
Wow! Thats what I wanted to see. Thanks! :smiley_clap:
I wonder what % those numbers would be for just archery kills? Are we still seeing our bow/xbow harvest numbers droping at the same alarming rate? ...
I mean I love bow hunting and done it for many years but some of you guys just frigen amaze me with your knowledge of equipment, deer and targeted deer. Hand made bows and arrows, Multiple properties. You guys kill deer. You guys target deer... Shit. Dannman has even targeted a specific family of deer. (lol) Of the total kills a season, what % of those are the "the Guy" , the orange wave gangs. You know that weekend warrior hunter that jumps one or has one pushed to him on a drive. He's been out there what 2-4 hours?!?!
And you have been 20,40,60 or 80 hours in these woods this season...
(whoa. sorry about that rant.)
anyway; Are we still seeing our bow/xbow harvest numbers droping at the same alarming rate? could ours be dropping TOO but being off-set by the increased numbers of new archers!
I'm not trash talken "all gun hunters" so don't start that shit. lol
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I agree with you, Jake. Another thing I'd like to see is the total acres of leased ground in 2011 compared to say 2005. Hunting leases have blown up all over the state in the past decade. Farms that used to see droves of hunters during deer gun season are now leased, resulting in limited hunting pressure and fewer deer killed per farm. Hell, look how many acres have turned into fenced game "ranches" in the state of Ohio. Thousands. That's an aspect that seldom gets mentioned in this great debate.
Buckslayer
*Supporting Member*
Several factors may/are contributing to the decrease in harvest in Ohio. The two I believe are the key factors and the only ones that make a difference are
1. Less deer due to the introduction of higher limits.
2.The new check system-Say you print your tags off your home computer. It pops up to prints, you hit that you want 7 copies. You buy an anterless tag. You kill a doe, you temp tag it and bring it home to check it in. Instead, you throw your temp tag in the trash and grab your next copy of the same tag. This especially works for guys who cut up their own deer. Endless circle of using the same tag, and your always safe because you have the temp tag on the deer if you get checked. Just gotta hope Mr. Game Warden doesnt come to your house while your processing your untagged doe. JMO.
1. Less deer due to the introduction of higher limits.
2.The new check system-Say you print your tags off your home computer. It pops up to prints, you hit that you want 7 copies. You buy an anterless tag. You kill a doe, you temp tag it and bring it home to check it in. Instead, you throw your temp tag in the trash and grab your next copy of the same tag. This especially works for guys who cut up their own deer. Endless circle of using the same tag, and your always safe because you have the temp tag on the deer if you get checked. Just gotta hope Mr. Game Warden doesnt come to your house while your processing your untagged doe. JMO.
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Number two has been a risk since the DNR allowed printing licenses and tags online years ago. Even prior to telecheck... I make copies of mine when I print them. Not for the reasons stated, but because they're paper and can get wet, worn, etc and they want 3 bucks to print a new one.
I agree with Buckslayer and Joe.....I know times are hard so this fits right in. I KNOW people are doing it as it is TOO easy ~~ I asked personally about the poachers...I was told poachers are going to poach....That may be true, but many honest people have given into tempatation... and they are allowing all this for what? Just so they can make much more money. Look where they are saving: No more waterproof paper....Less fuel running supplies to license dealers...Less man-hours dealing with those supplies......No more metal tags.... More money coming into them due to the extra tags being bought because they say there is a large population of deer. Johnny Couch Tater may believe that stuff but I have seen different! Sad part is, it's about the Money! And nobody will EVER probably know what they were promised from the insurance companies for reducing the herd. Part of my job is driving up and down the freeway. I do not see near as many deer hit as I did 3+ years ago ~~ Deer may stay in the Acorns and Standing Corn.....BUT: They can't stay in there when they're chasing their DIKK around..........And that is when I USED to see so many carcases along the road. I see half as many carcases now...I DO NOT BELIEVE THE TOTAL POPULATION IS STILL WARRANTING ALL THESE TAGS! Late in the year when deer herd up, I used to see 25-40 deer across the street nearly every night......Now, 15 is a large number. Our thicket in the same time frame, you could watch up to 70 deer come out at dark every night (Gods Honest Truth)...Now 25 is the large number..... I have lived in this house for 25 years and have NEVER heard a shot at night (except maybe a 22 during coon season)...I have heard 3 this year at 10:30 or later and it was definately not a 22...I would say they are because of the "Improved Check System". My Shooter Buck Pics had tripled in the 4 years I have been pumping the minerals into them........I now haven't had a shooter on film for 2 weeks with 8 cameras?........And their in the Standing Corn?....MY AZZ! They still USED to come out at night!.....Sorry to ramble, but I've been Pizzed about this since last year when they used Diane and I for a "Guinea Pig" to try out the new systems... This thread just brought it all out... Makes me about half sick to know I even live in the same County as one of the Wildlife Council Members. And I won't even go into all the money they "STOLE" from the Mom and Pop Shops (Who disperse their money in different directions) or the thrill for all hunters to hang out at the check stations.....Creating Dreams for Tomorrows Hunt and watching the youngsters excitement looking at those deer............Again, Sorry to ramble, but Thank You For Letting Me Vent This One Out!
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Schu72
Well-Known Member
The bow harvest is down this year as well. I also believe there are still pockets of great deer hunting, but in general the deer herd is down. Liberal bag limits and long seasons aren't the only issues at play. Some of my properties are infested with coyotes. Don't dismiss their effect on the herd. Fawn predation needs to be considered when discussing reproduction rates and population models. Ten to fifteen years ago they may not have been a factor, but they are everywhere now and growing in numbers.
Coyotes are a factor but from observation in my area a smaller one. I don't find many deer carcasses on our land. Turkey, rabbit, coon, even a few cats... yes. But not deer. I did find one fawn carcass a couple years ago.
And my properties are FULL of yotes.
And my properties are FULL of yotes.