Help Needed: Land Usage Data

[FredT]

Where I hunt I spend very fews hours of hunting for the deer I take. I take one buck during archery. This year that took 2 hours for an 8 point. I like gun hunting with handguns or MLs so I wait till then to take a second deer. This year at my sportman's club it took 8 hours to take a doe only because the cap on my Rem 700 was part way off the nipple and did not fire. That other doe would have died after one hour of hunting. During the 8 hours 2 small bucks came by, oblivious to me. If I chose to hunt for a 3rd deer I would have gone back to the same spot. I could take many deer here in Gurnsey Co. We have a lot of them. I choose to take two, one for me, one for someone in our church who is tickled to get the deer. Not because they are needy, far from it, they just love venison. So I know I am blessed out here and can not relate to the don't see deer stories, true as they are.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Ok, the same can be said for areas where I hunt. But, if I go to another area just 5 or 10 miles down the road, my opportunities just to kill "a" deer increase. Are you hunting the same area over and over or are you spreading yourself out to increase your opportunities?

There is a farm 5 miles from where I most often hunt. It has had no hunting for years. Years ago, if I had a bad sit or two and started thinking the rut wasn't in full swing, or the deer just weren't moving, I'd drive past and get educated. You couldn't drive past the place without seeing deer. That is not the case anymore. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a deer on that property. It is not that I am not willing to move to where the deer are moving...there are few deer in the entire area. You are say you are starting to notice a decline in your county, but your county still kills 1000 or so. Fayette's best year was 600. That was in 1995, and it seemed there were deer everywhere...and that is because we can see for miles once the crops are off. I can still see for miles, but there is rarely any deer out there. Overly-ambitious harvest goals by the DOW have brought this area to nearly nothing, relatively speaking of course.

 

[mrex]

There is a farm 5 miles from where I most often hunt. It has had no hunting for years. Years ago, if I had a bad sit or two and started thinking the rut wasn't in full swing, or the deer just weren't moving, I'd drive past and get educated. You couldn't drive past the place without seeing deer. That is not the case anymore. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a deer on that property. It is not that I am not willing to move to where the deer are moving...there are few deer in the entire area. You are say you are starting to notice a decline in your county, but your county still kills 1000 or so. Fayette's best year was 600. That was in 1995, and it seemed there were deer everywhere...and that is because we can see for miles once the crops are off. I can still see for miles, but there is rarely any deer out there. Overly-ambitious harvest goals by the DOW have brought this area to nearly nothing, relatively speaking of course.

What happened to the deer on the property that nobody hunts?

 

[Jackalope]

What happened to the deer on the property that nobody hunts?

Ate too many willy wonka acorns and turned into oak trees.

 

[jagermeister]

What happened to the deer on the property that nobody hunts?

Exact same thing I was wondering...

 

[brock ratcliff]

What happened to the deer on the property that nobody hunts?

I have no idea. My best guess would be they stepped across a fence.

 

[Darron]

Coming from a common sense stand point...........wouldn't it make sense to have the limits higher in counties with less public land/hunter access and lower in counties that have numerous opportunities for hunters? Obviously this wouldn't work for some counties like Fayette, however, access in SE Ohio is everywhere, yet they have the highest bag limits. However, look at Greene, Warren, Butler, Miami, Montgomery etc and there is very few state properties to hunt and private land can be tough to get on (in my experiences at least). Within reason, shouldn't these counties that are predominately private have higher bag limits because access is going to restricted?

 

[mrex]

I have no idea. My best guess would be they stepped across a fence.

That might account for a few rutting bucks but most doe/yearling groups spend the majority of their time in a relatively small core area…especially in the more agricultural areas where cover is limited. Maybe an isolated EHD outbreak did them in? But you would think somebody would have made a “stink” about all the dead deer. There has got to be a logical reason to blame the DOW…you hear that TONK!!!

 

[Mountaineer]

Darron..

I agree. Lower allocations in areas with publiclands. I run into alot of hunters on the public that either own land or have access to privateland but yet they will Burn their doe tags on the public.

Mike..Imagine if your property was open to the public and had a completely open door policy 365 days per year. What would happen?

I personally dont believe the high doe allocations effects privateland much..Joe the landowner still has complete control of who he lets hunt and whats being removed. The only areas that are really hurt by high doe allocations are the Publiclands. And since i hunt publicland..it concerns me. The publicland i took my 07' and 08' bucks is not the same today as it was then. I dont hunt that publicland that much anymore.. its being exloited and overhunted. Thats where i was last weekend scouting..and let me tell ya..its not the same as it was in 07' ..when i first began hunting ohio.

Like i said before, Ill adapt to the conditions put in front of me..no problem. Im not haveing problems now in Ohio as far as finding mature bucks..im talking 5 to 10 yeras down the road. What im benefiting from now in Ohio is the result of past managaement..whats occuring today will effect the future.

 

[Milo]

That might account for a few rutting bucks but most doe/yearling groups spend the majority of their time in a relatively small core area…especially in the more agricultural areas where cover is limited. Maybe an isolated EHD outbreak did them in? But you would think somebody would have made a “stink” about all the dead deer. There has got to be a logical reason to blame the DOW…you hear that TONK!!!

or they got ate by the coyotes.. would not take that long

 

[Darron]

Darron..

I agree. Lower allocations in areas with publiclands. I run into alot of hunters on the public that either own land or have access to privateland but yet they will Burn their doe tags on the public.

Mike..Imagine if your property was open to the public and had a completely open door policy 365 days per year. What would happen?

I personally dont believe the high doe allocations effects privateland much..Joe the landowner still has complete control of who he lets hunt and whats being removed. The only areas that are really hurt by high doe allocations are the Publiclands. And since i hunt publicland..it concerns me. The publicland i took my 07' and 08' bucks is not the same today as it was then. I dont hunt that publicland that much anymore.. its being exloited and overhunted. Thats where i was last weekend scouting..and let me tell ya..its not the same as it was in 07' ..when i first began hunting ohio.

Like i said before, Ill adapt to the conditions put in front of me..no problem. Im not haveing problems now in Ohio as far as finding mature bucks..im talking 5 to 10 yeras down the road. What im benefiting from now in Ohio is the result of past managaement..whats occuring today will effect the future.

You look at Vinton, Jackson, Athens, Scioto, etc and there is a ton of state property to hunt. I know in Vinton County there is 15,000 acres of mead experimental land that is open in addition to zaleski which is 25,000 acres. That's 35,000 acres right there for anyone to hunt. That's not counting the smaller WMA throughout the county. This is especially true for counties that have parts of WNF mixed in it. All of this is state property gets the absolute hell hunted out of it. It would only make sense to have these as the lower bag counties (due to access) versus a county like Montgomery or Greene that is mostly private property.

I've said it before and I will say it again.........IMO there is no need for any county to have higher than a 3 deer bag limit. If you need more than three deer to feed your family it looks like you'll be going to Meijer to get the rest of your meat. That's the way I look at it.

 

[Jackalope]

That might account for a few rutting bucks but most doe/yearling groups spend the majority of their time in a relatively small core area…especially in the more agricultural areas where cover is limited. Maybe an isolated EHD outbreak did them in? But you would think somebody would have made a “stink” about all the dead deer. There has got to be a logical reason to blame the DOW…you hear that TONK!!!

so are you implying that a doe will spend her entire life living in a single 15 acre wood block? And if said woods are unhunted she will die of natural causes?*

Are you implying that her female offspring will also live in said woodblock until they die?*

If this was true and I gained access on a property that had not been hunted in 10 years, wouldn't your logic dictate that it would be full of 10-year-old 9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2 and yearling does.

And plenty of people did make a stink about EHD Killing deer.. Like most things the DNR seemed to just ignore it and say that it was in small isolated pockets. Most people that I know that called their game warden were asked only one question "are the animals laying dead in the water". If they weren't Laying directly in the water they didn't seem to care.

Riiiigghhhttt.

 

[mrex]

Darron..

I agree. Lower allocations in areas with publiclands. I run into alot of hunters on the public that either own land or have access to privateland but yet they will Burn their doe tags on the public.

Mike..Imagine if your property was open to the public and had a completely open door policy 365 days per year. What would happen?

I personally dont believe the high doe allocations effects privateland much..Joe the landowner still has complete control of who he lets hunt and whats being removed. The only areas that are really hurt by high doe allocations are the Publiclands. And since i hunt publicland..it concerns me. The publicland i took my 07' and 08' bucks is not the same today as it was then. I dont hunt that publicland that much anymore.. its being exloited and overhunted. Thats where i was last weekend scouting..and let me tell ya..its not the same as it was in 07' ..when i first began hunting ohio.

Like i said before, Ill adapt to the conditions put in front of me..no problem. Im not haveing problems now in Ohio as far as finding mature bucks..im talking 5 to 10 yeras down the road. What im benefiting from now in Ohio is the result of past managaement..whats occuring today will effect the future.

Since you mentioned “my property,” I’ll share a little about my property so you can stop assuming.

I sold almost all of my property 7 years ago, one month before I killed the largest buck of my life. My objective at the time was to be debt free so if something happened with my job, I wouldn’t have to move my family…(we love it here)…and the fast track to financial independence was to sell the land that took me my entire adult life to acquire...50 acres at a time. Long story...slightly condensed…when the second gulf war broke out, the price of crude oil spiked. The industrial chemical company that I worked for at that time derived most of its products from crude oil. They went from a work force of 10,000 to 8,000 in 18 months. They cut through the C and B players quickly and started chopping the A players for “economic” reasons. I was in my early 40’s at the time and watching top performers just a few years older than me get let go because they made to much money…no unions in my world. I really wasn’t worried about finding another job as I’ve experienced some success at what I do and routinely get calls from head hunters…the problem is, the other opportunities were never in Athens Ohio. As luck would have it, I left that company on my terms 3 years later after being lured away by a competitor and they’re ok with me staying in Athens…as long as I don’t mined frequent over night travel and driving 1,200 miles per week. Fortunately, the guy who bought “my property” has become a great friend. Unfortunately, I’m only one of 20 great friends of his that now hunt “my property.” In reality, I have very few “sacred” acres to hunt and certainly not enough ground to manage or grow trophy whitetails. So to answer your question, my property gets more hunting pressure than the WNF that borders it, but thanks to some wise timber management and the killing of a bunch of deer, the hunting has improved since the days that I owned it!

To your point about the public land being over hunted…didn’t you spend years telling us to embrace hunting pressure? The cornerstone of your success has been other hunters pushing deer to you while you impersonate Linus at the pumpkin patch. So all of a sudden, hunting pressure is bad? I thought these “public land, random and unpredictable survivors” were to smart to be killed by the average hunter?

 

[mrex]

so are you implying that a doe will spend her entire life living in a single 15 acre wood block? And if said woods are unhunted she will die of natural causes?*

Are you implying that her female offspring will also live in said woodblock until they die?*

If this was true and I gained access on a property that had not been hunted in 10 years, wouldn't your logic dictate that it would be full of 10-year-old 9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2 and yearling does.

And plenty of people did make a stink about EHD Killing deer.. Like most things the DNR seemed to just ignore it and say that it was in small isolated pockets. Most people that I know that called their game warden were asked only one question "are the animals laying dead in the water". If they weren't Laying directly in the water they didn't seem to care.

Riiiigghhhttt.

Yes Joe...that's exactly what my logic will dictate...and I know this from experience. Surely you've heard the story about the 11 adult does I let the DOW dart and put collars on here on my place. Maybe once the carrying capacity is encroached some deer will move off to greener pastures but a core group of does will inhabit a fairly small area, <50 acres, their entire lives if all their needs are met.

 

[Kaiser878]

Yes Joe...that's exactly what my logic will dictate...and I know this from experience. Surely you've heard the story about the 11 adult does I let the DOW dart and put collars on here on my place. Maybe once the carrying capacity is encroached some deer will move off to greener pastures but a core group of does will inhabit a fairly small area, <50 acres, their entire lives if all their needs are met.

My house and another property I hunt are perfect examples of that! At all times there are 20+ deer at either place within a 50 acre tract.

 

[Mountaineer]

The Point im trying to make is...What makes Ohio hunting great today is from management implenemnted from the past. I Judge How great or poor a states department of wildlife is based on how great or poor the hunting is on their own land they manage..and that of course is Ohio's publiclands. Ohio DOW really cant take credit for great or poor hunting on privatelands because thats under the control of Joe the landowner. Today..I have No complaints..I think Ohio offers Awesome hunting on their publiclands..However..Im noticing a change. It wont effect the quality of my hunting in ohio for some years to come but whats occuring today will eventually take a toll and i see diminishing returns in the future. The greatest asset Ohio has regarding their deer herds are OLDER Doe's. They are the FOUNDATION. Remove them and Ohio is in deep deep trouble.


I see No difference wheather a Hot doe pulls a mature buck through the funnel im hunting or pushed by a blundering hunter. Pushed or Pulled it makes No difference to me. Its still a gruelling waiting game

 

[RedCloud]

Yes Joe...that's exactly what my logic will dictate...and I know this from experience. Surely you've heard the story about the 11 adult does I let the DOW dart and put collars on here on my place. Maybe once the carrying capacity is encroached some deer will move off to greener pastures but a core group of does will inhabit a fairly small area, <50 acres, their entire lives if all their needs are met.

With that logic then where did the 20 doe go that was on my 900 acres last year ? The most I have found in a single group this year is 5 does and a BB. Pretty sad to go from 20+ deer in one picture to only being able to get 6 as the biggest group thus far this year. On this property I know of 2 doe and 2 BB killed off of it in 2 years. Add in another yearling doe and BB that was hit by cars and left to rot on the side of the road for yote food this past summer. Where did they all go ?

 

[brock ratcliff]

That might account for a few rutting bucks but most doe/yearling groups spend the majority of their time in a relatively small core area…especially in the more agricultural areas where cover is limited. Maybe an isolated EHD outbreak did them in? But you would think somebody would have made a “stink” about all the dead deer. There has got to be a logical reason to blame the DOW…you hear that TONK!!!

I have no idea where the deer went...you don't either, nor does Tonk. However, I am not the one repeatedly saying "Kill more"...that is your friend Tonk. "Take a Doe" - ring a bell? So yes, I can blame the DOW. The deer project manager has been claiming we've had more deer than ever, and we NEED to kill more does...he is wrong. I won't go so far as to say that bag limits, too many opening days, or any other liberal "kill em all" crap the DOW has put out there is singly to blame. I don't honestly know how much of a factor EHD, over-harvest, or predation has affected the population. What I do know is the population is down - something Tonk has not recognized or acknowledged. He is the ONE that is supposed to be on top of this situation. He is the ONE you insist I should have faith in. Yet he is the ONE that continues to preach we have too many deer, and where I am that is BS.

BTW, in my chat with your close personal friend Coonskinner today, I mentioned again that I will be lurking around Athens come bowseason. He said the light would be on, and I thanked him. I did say however that I would not be staying in a cold, leaky tent on the WN as I fully intend to be crashing at the Rex residence and enjoying my evenings in your hot tub. Won't it be nice to have so many new flatland visitors to your neighborhood? Will there be a party on Halloween? I have an adorable Chip -n-Dale costume that is sure to be a hit!

 

[Kaiser878]

I have no idea where the deer went...you don't either, nor does Tonk. However, I am not the one repeatedly saying "Kill more"...that is your friend Tonk. "Take a Doe" - ring a bell? So yes, I can blame the DOW. The deer project manager has been claiming we've had more deer than ever, and we NEED to kill more does...he is wrong. I won't go so far as to say that bag limits, too many opening days, or any other liberal "kill em all" crap the DOW has put out there is singly to blame. I don't honestly know how much of a factor EHD, over-harvest, or predation has affected the population. What I do know is the population is down - something Tonk has not recognized or acknowledged. He is the ONE that is supposed to be on top of this situation. He is the ONE you insist I should have faith in. Yet he is the ONE that continues to preach we have too many deer, and where I am that is BS.

BTW, in my chat with your close personal friend Coonskinner today, I mentioned again that I will be lurking around Athens come bowseason. He said the light would be on, and I thanked him. I did say however that I would not be staying in a cold, leaky tent on the WN as I fully intend to be crashing at the Rex residence and enjoying my evenings in your hot tub. Won't it be nice to have so many new flatland visitors to your neighborhood? Will there be a party on Halloween? I have an adorable Chip -n-Dale costume that is sure to be a hit!

Im sticking to tuscarawas county for sure now!!lmao

 

[Kaiser878]

With that logic then where did the 20 doe go that was on my 900 acres last year ? The most I have found in a single group this year is 5 does and a BB. Pretty sad to go from 20+ deer in one picture to only being able to get 6 as the biggest group thus far this year. On this property I know of 2 doe and 2 BB killed off of it in 2 years. Add in another yearling doe and BB that was hit by cars and left to rot on the side of the road for yote food this past summer. Where did they all go ?

WHat time of year was that photo taken??? IF I remember correctly it was winter and there was a fair amount of snow on the ground. One thing we didnt have this year was good cold weather with a lot of snow. THe deer didnt "yard" up like they normally do this time of year.. So your odds of seeing 20+ deer in an area that is typically inhabited by 5-10 deer isnt likely.... CHances are good these deer stayed in their normal home range because food wasnt scarce this year and they didnt need to herd up and find a single food source. THe likely hood of those 20 deer and all their offspring being killed in one year to the point of only having 5 deer on your property is highly unlikely....IF they did get killed, you have bigger problems than a wildlife bilologist is gonig to be able to fix.