at1010
*Supporting Member*
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exactly! There is a large difference in average rack size on this side of route 7 and the other side of route 7.
Hunting "Mature Whitetails" in Ohio.
- Thread starter Jackalope
- Start date
exactly! There is a large difference in average rack size on this side of route 7 and the other side of route 7.
motorbreaker
*Supporting Member I*
I pick genetics as the most important factor. On our property, Some bucks have it, Some don't. We've had bucks that never get over the 130" hump. And bucks that jump the 200" mark.
Years of using cameras show us that some bucks just don't have the genetics. If they don't then they are on the hit list at 3.5. Between us and our neighboring friends we kill a management buck every year. Last year it was a 5.5 year old 10pt. that scored less then 130". I believe we have everything Spencie mentioned above except stress. I believe we have been putting to much stress on our deer in the past. Even though we have tagged some nice bucks. But everyone in our area has downsized the number of people hunting the area. Except for the Yoders across the street. And we have done a lot this year to keep them away from our property. I have more faith in our hunting area this year then I ever have. We've taken steps to limit preasure and have more food plots and sanctuarys. I'm pumped for the upcoming season.
I am not an expert. I do not have any schooling in the subject. I believe this though. I would have to put genetics at the top. Maturing might be 4yrs in one region but 6 or 7 in another. Just my opinion. Nothing more.
Not saying a buck is "fully" mature at 4yrs old. I just think some areas might see a larger percent of their full antler potential at 4 in one area but maybe 6yrs old in another. There again, just my opinion. Could be wrong.
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Finally had a chance to sit down and absorb this.
In my area, pressure is the primary inhibitor to consistently killing big bucks. We own 80 acres and I have control of the 50 next door. This 130 acres has it all and could provide me consistent success IF the rest of the neighborhood were not inhabited by trespassing, poaching, brown and down fucktards. You have age, genetics, and nutrition, but if you're property is being infiltrated by trespassers, pressured like hell on all side and most of the good bucks are being poached, your chances of consistent success are essentially nonexistent.
In my area, pressure is the primary inhibitor to consistently killing big bucks. We own 80 acres and I have control of the 50 next door. This 130 acres has it all and could provide me consistent success IF the rest of the neighborhood were not inhabited by trespassing, poaching, brown and down fucktards. You have age, genetics, and nutrition, but if you're property is being infiltrated by trespassers, pressured like hell on all side and most of the good bucks are being poached, your chances of consistent success are essentially nonexistent.
Totally agree Jesse! That is why the Drurys,Kiskeys, Lee and Tiff have big bucks down every year....cuz they manage HUGE tracts of prime areas and control the negatives you mentioned above! Their turnover seems infinite and they all host other TV celebs to help kill old cull bucks and add the video footage to their shows and maximize their exposure to the masses.
This is not a bashing of them as I feel they are the best of the best on TV along with HB and would do the exact same thing if I were given the same opportunity.
Just wanted to add that if genetics is going to be mentioned, healthy alpha does also need given a pass cuz they prolly have just as much if not more to do with future quality of bucks sired from top end bucks. I believe Dr Kroll mentioned this after doing a study which I feel carries a lot of merit.
I didn't put HB in the group with the other 3 cuz they mostly travel and hunt free ranging hunts for various species and I like their show.
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Fullbore
Senior Member
Finally got to read this.
The club property many of you guys saw is a victim of severe pressure. It starts in the summer with the quads cruising the fields and running the deer out. Then, it continues during archery season with deer drives on the weekends. Then gun week is drives everyday.
When that's all done, unless you have night vision and wanna break the law, you're not seeing a mature buck.
So, property is and isn't the problem. There's lots of property, but the majority of it is pressured non stop.
Also, the food sources aren't the best. Those fields aren't growing the good stuff! Yeah, I could put in a plot but then every member would put a stand on it.
I'm rambling...
Good read Joe. All truth! Location location location.
The club property many of you guys saw is a victim of severe pressure. It starts in the summer with the quads cruising the fields and running the deer out. Then, it continues during archery season with deer drives on the weekends. Then gun week is drives everyday.
When that's all done, unless you have night vision and wanna break the law, you're not seeing a mature buck.
So, property is and isn't the problem. There's lots of property, but the majority of it is pressured non stop.
Also, the food sources aren't the best. Those fields aren't growing the good stuff! Yeah, I could put in a plot but then every member would put a stand on it.
I'm rambling...
Good read Joe. All truth! Location location location.
joejoe8
Junior Member
- 387
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This is a great topic! This will be my 8th season hunting Ohio as a NR. I have eat tag soups the last 2 years. Both years I had bucks 4yr+ under me on my rut hunt, neither one would of hit 140's. I see more mature bucks than i see 150+ bucks on my 10 day rut hunt. I think we all look at how big alters are to try an tell how old the buck is. Some bucks just don't have the genetics.
Buckmaster
Senior Member
I simply look for sagging gut relative to broad shoulders and body size. That's a good indicator of a mature deer.
Buckmaster
Senior Member
Cotty,
At Short Creek, we have a food plot committee. I think last count was 17 plots existed. Perhaps your club could start a committee? and, yes stands and ground blinds are prevalent amongst those areas. You'll need to back off them and hunt the bottlenecks 1/4-1/2 mile down the woodlands (staging areas before dark).
joejoe8
Junior Member
- 387
- 61
I totally agree, I guess the point I was making was most hunters look at whats on his head first.
Great read Joe.
You can't kill a mature buck if they aren't there. Hunters need to know their area and surrounding areas to understand what deer hunters and deer are doing. You can have all the potential in the world but if deer are getting shot before they can fully develop a hunter will never kill a mature buck in those circumstances.
You can't kill a mature buck if they aren't there. Hunters need to know their area and surrounding areas to understand what deer hunters and deer are doing. You can have all the potential in the world but if deer are getting shot before they can fully develop a hunter will never kill a mature buck in those circumstances.
Great read. But I'm not so sure genetics has much to do with big deer in one area and not in another area. I'm more inclined to go with the expert studies that shows poor soil produces poor deer in size. The recent Mississippi research shows this very fact that poor soil can't produce big deer in body size or antler size.
When I don't know from my own knowledge I tend to go with the experts. Just saying and look out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovvpgyUWGSQ&feature=youtu.be
When I don't know from my own knowledge I tend to go with the experts. Just saying and look out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovvpgyUWGSQ&feature=youtu.be
motorbreaker
*Supporting Member I*
I agree with this. But even with good soil some bucks don't have as good of genetics. We have 5 year old bucks that score 130's and 5 year olds that score 180's. It looks to me from soil maps that most of Ohio has good soil. Our area don't have the best soil but produces big bucks every year.
I've hunted areas with poor soil and its the same thing. Some bucks have it, And some don't. But those buck where the poor soils were didn't come close to the bucks I'm hunting now. Antler size or weight.
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Don't get you undies in a bunch quite yet. lol This is article one of many and was written in respect to Ohio.
It's a good discussion however. Myself being from Mississippi and growing up in what is considered the "Good Quality" soil area, maybe I can shed some light here also. To understand what he means by the "poor" quality soil area in Mississippi you have to understand where he's talking about. The location of the map denoted as "poor soil" is nothing but pine forest that spans a couple thousand square miles. No crops, no oaks, no hay, no alfalfa, nothing but pines for hundreds of miles. Ask phil how the drive was from Gulfport Ms to Jackson Ms. I believe he said "that was the most boring two hour drive I've ever experienced". Noting but pine forests along the highway for hours and hours. It makes sense that deer who live in this area would suffer from malnutrition and underdevelopment. The poorest quality soil anywhere in the state of Ohio has 100X the biodiversity than that area of Mississippi. Even the reclaimed land that was strip mined 2-3 times we camped at last weekend offers far better biodiversity than the expansive pine forests of Mississippi. The "good quality" soil area he mapped is where I grew up. The delta of the Ms River. Each year the river flood for miles and miles over it's banks. This results in awesome soil and biodiversity. Oaks, persimmon, apple, and various flora are abundant, as well as crops of corn, cotton, peanuts, and the occasional soybean patch. So we're not talking about "soil quality" as much as we are biodiversity of food sources which means nutrition. Granted the reason for the lack of biodiversity is the soil quality but the impact is directly related to nutrition.
Nowhere in the state of Ohio do we have a lack of biodiversity that spans any meaningful distance like Ms. We do not have deer anywhere in this state that suffer from a lack of nutritional diversity exhibited in that study. From the stripped coal lands of the east, the hardwood forests of the south, or the corn and bean belt of the north every are has enough biodiversity to support quality deer. Specific properties may not, but the deer don't have to travel far to reach a better food abundant area. While this is a great discovery for Mississippi and other states with expansive tracts of zero bio diversity it hold little bearing on Ohio. There's no doubt that nutrition plays a role in the development of bucks, but genetics still reigns supreme. These whitetail farmers that spend 100K on breeder bucks are buying them based upon their brand of feed.
I'm OK here and the panties are just fine and loose. I was more or less referring to one farm and the next farm close by. Or so I think.
But then what do I know as I went from zero deer in the 1950's to plenty of deer to hunt today. It's been a good life deer hunting these last 50 years in Ohio.
But then what do I know as I went from zero deer in the 1950's to plenty of deer to hunt today. It's been a good life deer hunting these last 50 years in Ohio.