The Johnny King Buck

[jagermeister]

They got what they deserved. Boone-Crockett is an elite organization and two guys think they can make comments to downgrade other scorers, you do that behind closed doors. If you don't like it quit and then talk but to do it while still a scorer, that's not right.

I agree that they should have voiced their opinions more carefully... That was stupid on their part. However, the way they were let go shocks me. The one guy was a B&C scorer for 25 years, and didn't even get a phone call!... just a form letter instead. Now that's cowardly.

 

[mrex]

Not sure if any of you have been following this at all... This buck was originally scored as non-typ, but if scored as a typ would be a potential world record.

It's been a really controversial topic in the deer hunting/antler scoring arena. I just finished watching this video, which was posted on the D&DH webpage. While a lot of it makes sense to me, I just can't help but looking at the rack and thinking "those look like abnormal points to me." I'm curious as to what everyone else's thoughts are on this. Ahhh hemm.... Mike Rex, you especially. lol Agree, or disagree?



[video=youtube;dtBhj8iVrHc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dtBhj8iVrHc[/video]

By definition of the B&C Standard, the short tine is typical.

I was President of the BBBC in 2000 when Mike Beatty killed his state record 304" nontypical...the first 300" buck ever taken by a hunter anywhere. Our panel that scored Mike's deer consisted of 3 scorers, Ron Perrine Sr, Randy Clark and Butch Todd...with Gary Trent as an observer. At the time, these 4 gentleman had a combined total of 100 years of scoring experience between them and represented some of the most well respected whitetail measure's in North America. When B&C received the score sheet, their records chairman, Jack Reneau, questioned the score. Or more specifically, the typical frame, based on a photograph. We saw the glass as half full, Jack saw it as half empty. Beatty rescinded the entry into B&C. His buck will forever remain in our state record book at 304 and change.

There is a lot of room in the B&C scoring system for interpretation. As a scorer, I always round up because in my mind, it really is about the deer.

 

[finelyshedded]

I agree with rounding up.

 

[jagermeister]

By definition of the B&C Standard, the short tine is typical.

I was President of the BBBC in 2000 when Mike Beatty killed his state record 304" nontypical...the first 300" buck ever taken by a hunter anywhere. Our panel that scored Mike's deer consisted of 3 scorers, Ron Perrine Sr, Randy Clark and Butch Todd...with Gary Trent as an observer. At the time, these 4 gentleman had a combined total of 100 years of scoring experience between them and represented some of the most well respected whitetail measure's in North America. When B&C received the score sheet, their records chairman, Jack Reneau, questioned the score. Or more specifically, the typical frame, based on a photograph. We saw the glass as half full, Jack saw it as half empty. Beatty rescinded the entry into B&C. His buck will forever remain in our state record book at 304 and change.

There is a lot of room in the B&C scoring system for interpretation. As a scorer, I always round up because in my mind, it really is about the deer.

Very interesting stuff there, Mike. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm assuming there would be a high level of stress to go along with scoring a deer like the Beatty Buck. No matter how much experience a person has, deciphering a frame and scoring a rack of that magnitude has to be a daunting task.

Based on what you've said and what's gone on with the King Buck, it sounds to me like the B&C Club is a bunch of buttheads.

 

[finelyshedded]

Question for Mike Rex.

How can one mans opinion count and negate 3 well respected scorers? I've talked to all three of those scorers at least a couple of times over the years and they seem to be guys who would do the right thing and KNOW how to score a deer. Butch scored my first nice buck at his place back in 1986 and that guy has fallen many nice deer over the years. Ron Perrine scored my last 3 deer and I always enjoy my visits with him. I met Randy a few times during his Ohio Buck magazine stint back when it was in circulation. They all left me with an honest and respecting opinion of them.

So, with that many years of scoring experience along with proven success in the field, how does one guy, a record scoring coordinator, tell them they didn't score it right?

 

[DJK Frank 16]

If I had to guess Ric, probably the same reason an employee with 25+ years experience in a job can get bossed around by a punk manager fresh out of college with no previous experience in the field. Sadly, happens everyday.

 

[Jackalope]

They got what they deserved. Boone-Crockett is an elite organization and two guys think they can make comments to downgrade other scorers, you do that behind closed doors. If you don't like it quit and then talk but to do it while still a scorer, that's not right.

*Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel “It’s a shame what is happening to the King buck. It’s a typical 12-pointer in my eyes.”


And bam he was fired. How is this out of line? *He has 25 years as a B&C scorer, and that's his opinion. The reason he was fired was the B&C club was flexing their muscles and making an example out of him. They did it as a threat to anyone who might even consider scoring the buck.*

It's plain and simple BS. *They dont like the looks of the rack compared to Hansons with its almost perfect frame. Tall, wide, and long tined. It embodies their view of the perfect typical. Where as kings is all wavey and the time angles don't match.*

But probably the biggest problem B&C has is king could give two fucks about being famous, he's already sold the rack to a collector, he doesn't want to do their shows, sign autographs, travel around kissing babies, and all the other things that comes with it. Hanson himself has said killing his buck was almost not worth it due to the way it's consumed and changed his life from the sleepy farm life he had. They don't want his buck as the new WR because there isn't a pony they can ride for the next 15+ years. A collector has rights to the rack now. Which means he will be the one calling the shots and he knows how the game is played.*

It's a WR typical. The B&C club is just being bitches because they finally met a hunter who doesn't want to play into the commercial dog and pony. *

 

[bowhunter1023]

*Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel “It’s a shame what is happening to the King buck. It’s a typical 12-pointer in my eyes.”


And bam he was fired. How is this out of line? *He has 25 years as a B&C scorer, and that's his opinion. The reason he was fired was the B&C club was flexing their muscles and making an example out of him. They did it as a threat to anyone who might even consider scoring the buck.*

It's plain and simple BS. *They dont like the looks of the rack compared to Hansons with its almost perfect frame. Tall, wide, and long tined. It embodies their view of the perfect typical. Where as kings is all wavey and the time angles don't match.*

But probably the biggest problem B&C has is king could give two fucks about being famous, he's already sold the rack to a collector, he doesn't want to do their shows, sign autographs, travel around kissing babies, and all the other things that comes with it. Hanson himself has said killing his buck was almost not worth it due to the way it's consumed and changed his life from the sleepy farm life he had. They don't want his buck as the new WR because there isn't a pony they can ride for the next 15+ years. A collector has rights to the rack now. Which means he will be the one calling the shots and he knows how the game is played.*

It's a WR typical. The B&C club is just being bitches because they finally met a hunter who doesn't want to play into the commercial dog and pony. *

Fucking A!!! Where's the "Standing O" smiley?!? :smiley_clap:

 

[Monster Raxx]

Well said :smiley_clap:

 

[finelyshedded]

That's probably a pretty damn accurate assessment of the situation Joe. Well done!:smiley_clap:

 

[mrex]

Question for Mike Rex.

How can one mans opinion count and negate 3 well respected scorers? I've talked to all three of those scorers at least a couple of times over the years and they seem to be guys who would do the right thing and KNOW how to score a deer. Butch scored my first nice buck at his place back in 1986 and that guy has fallen many nice deer over the years. Ron Perrine scored my last 3 deer and I always enjoy my visits with him. I met Randy a few times during his Ohio Buck magazine stint back when it was in circulation. They all left me with an honest and respecting opinion of them.

So, with that many years of scoring experience along with proven success in the field, how does one guy, a record scoring coordinator, tell them they didn't score it right?

I don't know Ric, other than to say that Jack is notorious for tearing up score sheets. I've been the recording secretary of the BBBC for the past nine years and other than a few math errors, I've never questioned a single entry.

Joe is correct, there's a lot of politics within some of these organizations. The Pope & Young Club might be worse. This is just one of several disagreements I have had with Boone & Crockett. I guarantee you Teddy Roosevelt, Saxton Pope and Art Young have rolled over in their graves more than once over the years.

 

[JD Boyd]

I just read where 33 members of the b&c rules committee took a vote and all 33 said its a non typ... Seems to me that Johnny and Jay are traveling all over the place now. Radio show interviews, newspaper interviews and tv...

 

[finelyshedded]

Wow JD, that's interesting. The video in the OP, IMO put a pretty good case together explaining otherwise. Especially where the top of the MB was in conjunction with both "questionable G2 tines". Oh well, no skin off my back but the way I look at it, if they were to alter this rack to make it "typical" what would they do? I bet VERY little. Lol

 

[Jackalope]

I just read where 33 members of the b&c rules committee took a vote and all 33 said its a non typ... Seems to me that Johnny and Jay are traveling all over the place now. Radio show interviews, newspaper interviews and tv...

Lol come on man. Wouldn't you if your lifelong ambition was to be a B&C scorer and you just saw a very respected senior scorer of 25 years shit canned just for saying it was a typical.

That would be like you saying something your dad didn't agree with and him shit canning you from the family business. You think any of the other employees will dare say the same thing? Hell no. Lol.

 

[Monster Raxx]

How many of those 33 scorers have even laid hands on the rack. Like Jesse said there is no way any one is going to stand up for what they think is right now!

 

[Monster Raxx]

They have to figure a way to save face and if that is the best they can come up with they are in TROUBLE!

 

[JD Boyd]

Lol come on man. Wouldn't you if your lifelong ambition was to be a B&C scorer and you just saw a very respected senior scorer of 25 years shit canned just for saying it was a typical.

That would be like you saying something your dad didn't agree with and him shit canning you from the family business. You think any of the other employees will dare say the same thing? Hell no. Lol.

That was done before anyone got let go. My opinion doesn't mean a hill of beans but the zaft buck looked a lot better than this one. If I thought it looked typical I'd feel the same way you guys do but I don't...

And Ric, that is a good point...

 

[finelyshedded]

FWIW JD, I remember the Zaft buck as well and thought it should have been a typical TOO. I remember when that buck first appeared in NAW. Friggin stud of a buck with a good read on how he killed it TOO.

 

[hickslawns]

Take B&C out of the equation. The hunter already is out of the picture. What is left? One heck of a rack and people looking for money. I don't care what they decide about the rack. It is one heckuva deer and I am sure the hunter is proud of it. I sure don't know enough about the rules to take a stance, but I still say it is one nice rack! Congrats to the hunter!

 

[mrex]

Another one bites the dust: http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/deer-news/py-enters-king-buck-controversy

Why is Pope & Young even involved in this controversy? The deer was killed with a gun. I promise the BBBC wont boot anyone for voicing their opinion.

This quote from the latest D&DH article has a familiar ring to it...“I found it easy to call this rack a typical 215-plus-inch rack and difficult to call it a 180-inch typical or a nontypical,” Laidlaw said. “I learned early on in my scoring career that if it’s a close call, give it to the animal. The rules are fairly clear, but judgment does enter in to any measurement."

You can hit a deer with your truck and enter it in B&C...find one lying dead in the woods and they'll take your money...buy one at a garage sale and you're in...have a wireless trail camera photo of a buck before you kill it and they turn you down because that's not sporting. Lots of hypocrisy in the B&C rule book.

P&Y using it's influence over state game agencies to limit hunting opportunities is wrong. If you don't want to accept crossbow killed deer in your records, so be it...but don't use your influence to limit the opportunities of others who could give a rats ass if they ever win an Ishi Award.