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Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
I don't know, maybe I am naive. But, he did move Fayette to Zone A. Now, if he would just eliminate the bonus gun week.... :)

And good thing he did while you still one deer left..... Lol.... Last year 9 of us drove how many acres from sun up till sundown.. And saw what, 3 deer. Lol. And I killed one you wounded, then I wounded another. Lol.
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,307
237
Ohio
I don't know, maybe I am naive. But, he did move Fayette to Zone A. Now, if he would just eliminate the bonus gun week.... :)

Exactly. The guy is obviously open to advise and criticism. I think it's at least worth a try to go the cool, calm, and collected route first. If that doesn't work... Well then, I guess there's no other choice left but to bring out the big guns.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
49,532
288
Appalachia
Exactly. The guy is obviously open to advise and criticism. I think it's at least worth a try to go the cool, calm, and collected route first. If that doesn't work... Well then, I guess there's no other choice left but to bring out the big guns.

I agree with you on this. I sure way to pick a fight, is to start one. I'd rather not start one until the first punch has been thrown from the DNR. At that point, the gloves are off. Just how I'd like to see this all go down. Maybe we make a "pamphlet" or something to that end and send it to Tonk. Obviously getting him to join in here on TOO would be great as well...
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,307
237
Ohio
I agree with you on this. I sure way to pick a fight, is to start one. I'd rather not start one until the first punch has been thrown from the DNR. At that point, the gloves are off. Just how I'd like to see this all go down. Maybe we make a "pamphlet" or something to that end and send it to Tonk. Obviously getting him to join in here on TOO would be great as well...

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Personally, I'm not convinced that we have a problem with the population size. But obviously many hunters are. So take a rational approach at getting things changed and see what happens. You can still gather in numbers and be civilized at the same time. There's no reason to just assume that, "Oh it's a gov't agency so we must be getting dicked."
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
49,532
288
Appalachia
"Oh it's a gov't agency so we must be getting dicked."

It is hard for me to fathom that at some level, the DNR is not on the "take". However, I am willing to let them prove that to me before I head at them with that mentality. We have seen some startling numbers that could very well outline a major fundamental mistake in the current management scheme. Along with that, we've heard some great suggestions as to what things need to be addressed on a micro-level and how we can work to rectify those issues. If we have a untied front large enough, we are bound to be taken seriously at some point...
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,263
261
And good thing he did while you still one deer left..... Lol.... Last year 9 of us drove how many acres from sun up till sundown.. And saw what, 3 deer. Lol. And I killed one you wounded, then I wounded another. Lol.

That was in Highland Co. I shot the one that you killed, but don't recall anymore wounded...though I did find a dead one later in the year that could have been caught in the crossfire. Bill (the owner of the property we drove) told me the last day of gun season that he only knew of one deer killed on his farm during gun season. I saw 6 trucks parked there on Tuesday...haven't a clue how many people were in there the rest of the week as I didn't bother going over there in that mess! At any rate, the success rate is rather low over there. Funny, as several years ago that was a property I would go to in order to fill tags and "help the farmer". Back in those days, his dad was shooting about 12 a year with a rifle and they had nuisance tags we could fill with bows during season. Seems they have reached their goals...not much crop damage there anymore.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
Exactly. The guy is obviously open to advise and criticism. I think it's at least worth a try to go the cool, calm, and collected route first. If that doesn't work... Well then, I guess there's no other choice left but to bring out the big guns.

What do you think all of these threads for the past 4 years have been? I know he reads them. I can see the dnr IP addresses viewing the threads.. And what do we get.. Not a word in retort. Not a new thread stating their reasoning.. Nope just a possiable addition of a gun season... How many of these threads habe been made the last 4 years? Funny.. You say one thing about scent lok and they're here the next day... One thing about k&k bows Kevin himself posts the next day. And what do we get? Tonk himself in a media release saying "I haven't heard Boo about hunters complaining about low deer numbers"... Btw.. He said that in that interview at the same time three people that I know of were talking ro him about it... And at the same time he told one of them he was moving fayette back to zone A months before that was officially announced. He's had plenty of opertunity to make a statement if you ask me.
 

Beentown

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
15,740
154
Sunbury, OH
I don't believe for a second if they did become aware of concerns that we would get anything more than "we will look into it". Hope I am wrong but don't believe I am. Hell the petition and discussion for having turkey tags carry over was almost laughed at and there were a lot of signers (was not there first hand).
 

Dannmann801

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
10,967
205
Springboro
OK....here's a thought....
Obviously we're all just crazy ate-up with deer hunting...it's our passion, a big part of our lives.
What percentage of the hunting population do us and guys like us on other boards (or not even on boards) represent?

Does the general deer hunting population even know about herd levels? Do they see this as a problem like we do?
If not, how do we reach and educate them?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but like you say yourself Joe, we're different than the rest of the "herd" with our level of interest.
Are we maybe a fringe element? Is that how the ODNR maybe views it?
Maybe that's why they never reply like scentlok and other product vendors.
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,307
237
Ohio
OK....here's a thought....
Obviously we're all just crazy ate-up with deer hunting...it's our passion, a big part of our lives.
What percentage of the hunting population do us and guys like us on other boards (or not even on boards) represent?

Does the general deer hunting population even know about herd levels? Do they see this as a problem like we do?
If not, how do we reach and educate them?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but like you say yourself Joe, we're different than the rest of the "herd" with our level of interest.
Are we maybe a fringe element? Is that how the ODNR maybe views it?
Maybe that's why they never reply like scentlok and other product vendors.

I think that's part of it. I also know that gov't agencies don't make public comments without first going through their Public Information Officers.
 

Beentown

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
15,740
154
Sunbury, OH
Actually make it a new thread. Catchy title. Then link it. Just make sure Ryans numbers and assumptions post is at the top.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,263
261
OK....here's a thought....
Obviously we're all just crazy ate-up with deer hunting...it's our passion, a big part of our lives.
What percentage of the hunting population do us and guys like us on other boards (or not even on boards) represent?

Does the general deer hunting population even know about herd levels? Do they see this as a problem like we do?
If not, how do we reach and educate them?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but like you say yourself Joe, we're different than the rest of the "herd" with our level of interest.
Are we maybe a fringe element? Is that how the ODNR maybe views it?
Maybe that's why they never reply like scentlok and other product vendors.

Great point! Most people don't spend enough time looking for deer to know if they are around or not. I can't tell you how many times I have had people that spend a lot less time in the woods than I do come into the shop to talk. I ask them what they are seeing and it is always very little. They almost all give the excuse the ODOW has put forth...too many acorns, they are over on the neighbors farm, coon hunters have em run off....you know the list of reasons. No one wants to believe there simply aren't nearly as many as there has been. I fish a lot. I catch fish. It's a rare day that I will ever say "they just aren't biting"...but I hear it all the time from others. I hunt the same way I fish. I have the attitude that they are somewhere -even if there aren't many anywhere. I will find them eventually... The problem is, I look an awful lot of places that used to have deer, and they aren't there. Once upon a time when I jumped a deer I would just continue on to my stand because I knew another would be by shortly. Now, if I bump a deer, I just want to turn around and head home because that was the ONE I was hoping to see while on stand. The same as I don't use the excuse the fish aren't biting, I don't use the excuses many others may.... I didn't buy the acorn theory last year, I went to the acorns. I didn't buy the corn theory this year, I went in the corn. I didn't use the bad weather theory, I hunt regardless (and have killed them in all kinds of weather). I still kill deer, but man do I cover a lot of ground trying to find them - (Joe can attest to that from the previously mentioned deer drive of last year). The point being, I think most folks would just say the deer aren't moving and leave it at that. They would likely believe the ODOW's gift-wrapped excuses for their inablity to see and kill deer. I (and likely most here) am not that guy....if they are anywhere, I'll find 'em eventually...fact is, I'm not finding many.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
49,532
288
Appalachia
Great point! Most people don't spend enough time looking for deer to know if they are around or not. I can't tell you how many times I have had people that spend a lot less time in the woods than I do come into the shop to talk. I ask them what they are seeing and it is always very little. They almost all give the excuse the ODOW has put forth...too many acorns, they are over on the neighbors farm, coon hunters have em run off....you know the list of reasons. No one wants to believe there simply aren't nearly as many as there has been. I fish a lot. I catch fish. It's a rare day that I will ever say "they just aren't biting"...but I hear it all the time from others. I hunt the same way I fish. I have the attitude that they are somewhere -even if there aren't many anywhere. I will find them eventually... The problem is, I look an awful lot of places that used to have deer, and they aren't there. Once upon a time when I jumped a deer I would just continue on to my stand because I knew another would be by shortly. Now, if I bump a deer, I just want to turn around and head home because that was the ONE I was hoping to see while on stand. The same as I don't use the excuse the fish aren't biting, I don't use the excuses many others may.... I didn't buy the acorn theory last year, I went to the acorns. I didn't buy the corn theory this year, I went in the corn. I didn't use the bad weather theory, I hunt regardless (and have killed them in all kinds of weather). I still kill deer, but man do I cover a lot of ground trying to find them - (Joe can attest to that from the previously mentioned deer drive of last year). The point being, I think most folks would just say the deer aren't moving and leave it at that. They would likely believe the ODOW's gift-wrapped excuses for their inablity to see and kill deer. I (and likely most here) am not that guy....if they are anywhere, I'll find 'em eventually...fact is, I'm not finding many.

:smiley_clap:
 

Lundy

Member
1,312
141
Has anyone actually tried to set up a meeting? Or has anyone tried working through the OBA or any other recognized group for that matter to set up a face to face meeting with the DOW to discuss the concerns about harvest and populations?

How many have attended any of the public hearings held each year?

It is unrealistic to expect them to come to this site and answer questions or concerns. Just isn't going to happen. However I fully believe that a properly presented proposal for a meeting would be accepted.

Just maybe if you take the right people and attitudes to the meeting you might get somewhere, who knows
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
39,183
274
OK....here's a thought....
Obviously we're all just crazy ate-up with deer hunting...it's our passion, a big part of our lives.
What percentage of the hunting population do us and guys like us on other boards (or not even on boards) represent?

Does the general deer hunting population even know about herd levels? Do they see this as a problem like we do?
If not, how do we reach and educate them?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but like you say yourself Joe, we're different than the rest of the "herd" with our level of interest.
Are we maybe a fringe element? Is that how the ODNR maybe views it?
Maybe that's why they never reply like scentlok and other product vendors.

No the hunting population as a whole doesn't see it the same as us who are passionately involved... Which is why the dnr is capable of using them as a tool to slaughter the deer population.. Basically shooting themselves in the foot... But eventually they wake up whwn they see far less deer... We've had two pwoplw in the last week register and post one gripe about no deer in their areas.... The problem is by the time this happens and there is an awakening the damage goals will be achieved.... Hunters as individuals are incapable of keeping the population levels high. . They just kill what they're told.. Even on a micro scale it doesn't work.. Habe you even shared a property with 6 guys and try to get them on a qdma mindset. You'll get one that's with you, one that's on the fence, and three idiots who will continue to kill.

Sure they may view us as a fringe group.. But fact is there are a bunch of people out there not happy about deer numbers... But just don't know what's happening.... And the lower they go the easier it will be for a spark to create a Forrest fire against the dnr...
 

huntn2

Senior Member
6,097
171
Hudson, OH
I would welcome a conference call with Mike to discuss my analysis.

I would like to discuss his thoughts and inputs on the variables I used. Additionally I would like to learn what other factors they take into account that I overlooked/don't have visibility to.

I would love to learn about the different metrics used to measure and manage the herd. I am sure there is analysis and modeling similar to what I have done that is completed by the ODNR that would intetest me. Perhaps I could offer a suggestion or two as well.

Mike or one of his admins can easily sign-up here and shoot me a PM to arrange something. Not suprised they dont just chime in because I have no doubt they would get jumped out of the gate.

If I don't hear anything perhaps I will send an email requesting 30-60 min of his time. I could easily send my analysis but I would want to walk him through it. Maybe I will put a few PowerPoint slides together to send.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
 

Gern186

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
10,457
215
NW Ohio Tundra
Has anyone actually tried to set up a meeting? Or has anyone tried working through the OBA or any other recognized group for that matter to set up a face to face meeting with the DOW to discuss the concerns about harvest and populations?

How many have attended any of the public hearings held each year?
It is unrealistic to expect them to come to this site and answer questions or concerns. Just isn't going to happen. However I fully believe that a properly presented proposal for a meeting would be accepted.

Just maybe if you take the right people and attitudes to the meeting you might get somewhere, who knows

I have attended public hearings....DNR open houses....spoke with officers, etc. They definitely have an agenda because any of the opposition to the plans they had proposed went in one ear and out the other.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,263
261
Has anyone actually tried to set up a meeting? Or has anyone tried working through the OBA or any other recognized group for that matter to set up a face to face meeting with the DOW to discuss the concerns about harvest and populations?

How many have attended any of the public hearings held each year?

It is unrealistic to expect them to come to this site and answer questions or concerns. Just isn't going to happen. However I fully believe that a properly presented proposal for a meeting would be accepted.

Just maybe if you take the right people and attitudes to the meeting you might get somewhere, who knows
I am willing to bet Tonk would be willing to set up a meeting, or correspond in some way on the matter. As I said earlier, I've spoken with him and felt he was genuine on the matters we discussed. If I were him, I would much rather meet and discuss the matter and be able to demonstrate the models I use vs being "attacked" at in a public meeting. Again, I think that is the way to go at this point. Ryan's numbers, to me, prove the theory that if you have ten you can kill four, and if you only have 5, four are still killable. Ryan, I think you should format the numbers clearly and pass them along!
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
40,471
288
Ohio
I would like to discuss his thoughts and inputs on the variables I used. Additionally I would like to learn what other factors they take into account that I overlooked/don't have visibility to.

Very fair in my opinion. I feel those paying license and tag fees should at a MINIMUM be given the factors they account in making their decisions. This is not a dictatorship. This is not the military. It is not a "do what you are told" situation.

I would love to learn about the different metrics used to measure and manage the herd. I am sure there is analysis and modeling similar to what I have done that is completed by the ODNR that would intetest me. Perhaps I could offer a suggestion or two as well.

Once again, I find this to be more than fair.

Here is something I have been stewing on since this thread has started. Technology? I find it very hard to believe with the tracking technology, infared technology, satellites, etc., which we have today, there is not a better method of collecting the data on the deer herd. How have they done it in the past? Grid off one square mile, count turds from deer, and work up the number of turds into some formula? Is this still the way it is being done? How is it being done? IS it being done at all? Before the people leading up the ODNR, and more specifically those determining zones and bag limits, determine how many deer permits per zone should be allowed, don't we have a right to know HOW they are determining this?