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[jagermeister]

Very fair in my opinion. I feel those paying license and tag fees should at a MINIMUM be given the factors they account in making their decisions. This is not a dictatorship. This is not the military. It is not a "do what you are told" situation.



Once again, I find this to be more than fair.

Here is something I have been stewing on since this thread has started. Technology? I find it very hard to believe with the tracking technology, infared technology, satellites, etc., which we have today, there is not a better method of collecting the data on the deer herd. How have they done it in the past? Grid off one square mile, count turds from deer, and work up the number of turds into some formula? Is this still the way it is being done? How is it being done? IS it being done at all? Before the people leading up the ODNR, and more specifically those determining zones and bag limits, determine how many deer permits per zone should be allowed, don't we have a right to know HOW they are determining this?

One of the most common methods of population estimation is studying the annual buck harvest. Season dates stay about the same, and the way people hunt doesn't change much... This, along with research to support it, suggests that the buck harvest trend is usually a good indicator of the population trend. This data, along with harvested buck age and antler data, is input with a bunch of other data into scientific models. Now here's an issue... Over the past 5 years or so, the way people pursue deer HAS changed. Hunters pass up a lot of small bucks that they would never pass up before... QDM has become very popular amond deer hunters. So, IMO, this change in hunting patterns could have an effect on the accuracy of these population models. The DOW I'm sure is already aware of such factors... But have they accounted for them??? I don't know. That's be a question for Tonk to answer.

 

[Lundy]

I can't comment on the models used by the DOW for estimating deer or any other wildlife in Ohio.

I have been privileged to the model used for estimating walleye, perch, smallmouth in Lake Erie and it is extremely detailed, long and complex. An amazing amount of data is compiled to do comparisons from year to year and establish trends.

I am very confident that the biologists for the Ohio DOW or any other state for that matter, do not use a simplistic model like has been offered here for estimating wildlife populations in the state. If they do I will be very disappointed because they would not be doing thier jobs as I believe they are.

That being said I can't imagine that those in the DOW would have any problems sharing the guidelines and inputs used for thier modeling. I seriously doubt that it is a secret and normally sharing how those numbers are derived tends to reduce misunderstanding between and outdoor group and the DOW. I assure you it will be stacks and stacks of data. They do not throw darts at a dartboard to pick a population number.

I believe they will welcome the questions on the modeling. It shows an interest in the facts. I think what they get most of is "we don't have enough deer, you are screwing us"

Please let us know what you find out, I am obviously very interested.

 

[jagermeister]

I can't comment on the models used by the DOW for estimating deer or any other wildlife in Ohio.

I have been privileged to the model used for estimating walleye, perch, smallmouth in Lake Erie and it is extremely detailed, long and complex. An amazing amount of data is compiled to do comparisons from year to year and establish trends.

I am very confident that the biologists for the Ohio DOW or any other state for that matter, do not use a simplistic model like has been offered here for estimating wildlife populations in the state. If they do I will be very disappointed because they would not be doing thier jobs as I believe they are.

That being said I can't imagine that those in the DOW would have any problems sharing the guidelines and inputs used for thier modeling. I seriously doubt that it is a secret and normally sharing how those numbers are derived tends to reduce misunderstanding between and outdoor group and the DOW. I assure you it will stacks and stacks of data.

I believe they will welcome the questions on the modeling. It shows an interest in the facts. I think what they get most of is "we don't have enough deer, you are screwing us"

Please let us know what you find out, I am obviously very interested.

Yea that ^^^

 

["J"]

I think your best bet would find an email address for one of the biologists and email them and strike up a conversation on the models used.... Might get you somewhere.....

 

[brock ratcliff]

Mike.Tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us

 

[JD Boyd]

They figure it by how many deer are in per square mile

 

[Beentown]

They figure it by how many deer are in per square mile

Do you know how they derive that number?

 

[jagermeister]

They figure it by how many deer are in per square mile

Do you know how they derive that number?

Trust me, that's not even the half of it.

 

[hickslawns]

They figure it by how many deer are in per square mile

By counting turds?

They do not throw darts at a dartboard to pick a population number.

Lundy- I hope you are correct, but sometimes you sure do wonder.

That being said I can't imagine that those in the DOW would have any problems sharing the guidelines and inputs used for thier modeling. I seriously doubt that it is a secret and normally sharing how those numbers are derived tends to reduce misunderstanding between and outdoor group and the DOW. I assure you it will be stacks and stacks of data.

Once again, I hope you are correct. I don't think it "should" be any secret, but the problem I foresee is whether you will get a truthful answer from them or not. Keep in mind, they think the hunters for the most part are idiots doing what they are told and not going to question anything. While this is my opinion, it certainly does feel this way most of the time. I like Jackalope's idea of using the Freedom of Information Act to find out HOW they are actually calculating the herd size. If I had to guess, they KNOW there aren't as many deer in the herd as they tell us. OR. . . they are using fuzzy math.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Just had another one of those interesting conversations. This time with a guy that does know a little bit about deer. He owns a hunting operation outside of town. Aside from high-fence deer, they do open range and phesant "hunts". He also does a lot of timber work. Anyway, he is in the woods a lot. I asked him how the deer hunting was on his side of the lake this year. "Deer, what deer? There arent any!" Funny to hear when it isn't me saying it. Another fella was in the shop with his family and heard our conversation. He comes from a family of deer hunters, in fact his dad's "big one"was the typical state record for 25 years or so. He didn't see a deer until Thursday of gun season....hehe. I'm just glad it isn't just me!

 

[JD Boyd]

Supposedly they do it by helicopter...

 

[Jackalope]

Just had another one of those interesting conversations. This time with a guy that does know a little bit about deer. He owns a hunting operation outside of town. Aside from high-fence deer, they do open range and phesant "hunts". He also does a lot of timber work. Anyway, he is in the woods a lot. I asked him how the deer hunting was on his side of the lake this year. "Deer, what deer? There arent any!" Funny to hear when it isn't me saying it. Another fella was in the shop with his family and heard our conversation. He comes from a family of deer hunters, in fact his dad's "big one"was the typical state record for 25 years or so. He didn't see a deer until Thursday of gun season....hehe. I'm just glad it isn't just me!

No brock.. That can't be right.... They aren't members here of this small crazy ass backwards group that has dreamed up a fallacy that deer are in very low numbers compared to a couple years ago....... I mean wtf man... You actually talked with another hunter about what they're seeing.. That sounds too logical..

 

[brock ratcliff]

And seriously, Joe, there is a world of difference in habitat depending on which side of the lake you are on. Essentially, you know both areas too. I'm on the west side of the lake, Bryan's place is on the east side. The eastern side took a year or two longer to notice the drop apparently.

 

[hickslawns]

Lots of locals around here complaining about not seeing deer. It is definitely not JUST the guys on the internet hunting forums that have noticed.

 

[Milo]

What bothers me is that generally when they set regulations, they are conservative by nature in the limits. Not so much with this new crew. Back when the deer herd was very small, the closed the entire season.....I know the feds are with ducks and geese....

 

[bowhunter1023]

Lots of locals around here complaining about not seeing deer. It is definitely not JUST the guys on the internet hunting forums that have noticed.

Been doing a TON of talking around my part of the state as well and the overwhelming response has been "there are just less deer". The excuses are slowly moving from "must have been the acorns" or "standing corn" and become more and more associated with the obvious decline in numbers...

 

[epe]

Been doing a TON of talking around my part of the state as well and the overwhelming response has been "there are just less deer". The excuses are slowly moving from "must have been the acorns" or "standing corn" and become more and more associated with the obvious decline in numbers...

We all see it, it just comes down to what the state wants to do about it..

 

[Jackalope]

We all see it, it just comes down to what the state wants to do about it..

Depends on if the powder keg ignites .... If we as hunters don't organize then the state will do nothing as it doesn't effect them. 200,000 hunters can mumble and talk amongst themselves all they want about low deer numbers.. But if 20,000 organize and give the DNR holy hell, that's is enough to make the world flip upside down... Case in point.. The WO officer that broke all the laws for licensing.. They swept it under the rug, got the charges dropped, and even brought him back to work later..... I don;t think you could have found 1 hunter that didn't want the book thrown at him... But did they.. Nope... Why? Because nobody brought the heat and made it an issue........... The same could be said for deer numbers.... Everyone can agree that it's a problem and they don't agree... We'll simply be ignored just as we are now... However, I see a bunch of people who are seeing the decline and are quite pissed off.... I think all they need is a guy good at creating websites and community organizing to spread the word so they focus their anger at the DNR... If that happens... Then crap will change... Till then we'll get an early muzz season to kill them even more...


Every person I see in camo i walk up and start talking hunting, my 2nd question is "How are the deer sightings in your area compared to 3-4 years ago........ 99% of the time now they all say.. Way down... My 2nd question is, what percent would you say it's down... The answer 9 times out of 10 is above 50% usually around 75%...........

 

[Milo]

THIS IS WHY WE SHOULD BE PISSED

this is in regard to the farmers allowing hunting program

“The problem is that what we found ourselves doing was artificially raising expectations of our hunters, and that’s no good,” ODNR spokesman Mike Tonkovich said. “We didn’t expect that kind of an interest on the side of hunters.”

Hunters not interested in land to hunt on? Really? now i'm pissed


http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/12/09/landowner-apathy-kills-website.html

 

[jagermeister]

THIS IS WHY WE SHOULD BE PISSED

this is in regard to the farmers allowing hunting program

“The problem is that what we found ourselves doing was artificially raising expectations of our hunters, and that’s no good,” ODNR spokesman Mike Tonkovich said. “We didn’t expect that kind of an interest on the side of hunters.”

Hunters not interested in land to hunt on? Really? now i'm pissed


http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/12/09/landowner-apathy-kills-website.html

I must admit... That's pretty fuggin ridiculous.