Open house meet-greet

[Jackalope]

There is no outcry about the deer populations by hunters. What is going on here and a couple of other websites hardly constitutes a whimper, it's not even a bark and certainly no bite to it. As difficult as that is to accept, it is just a reality.

Actually, I watched many many people walk in the door who don't even know about this site that were complain about deer numbers. I stood close to bill for almost three hours and listened to person after person bring it up. I also talked to others who were there to push issues like turkey permits and deer numbers. If I was to guess I would say the majority of people there mentioned the subject.

Tao weeks ago at the OBBC dinner many people brought it up also, not a one of them affiliated with TOO.

Part of the plan is too resist any and all backlash and immediately stamp out any individual that brings it up. And they will continue with that until we are organized and bring the backlash in a unified voice. The anger is out there and I'm sure they're getting plenty of backlash its just unorganized individuals who are easy to discard.

That however that is going to change. . I am already seeing it. And very soon we will have a new site and organization. It's actually too late to turn this around. The goal has almost been met and the damage done. However those responsible will be held accountable and hopefully we can unify a voice to be reckoned with when it comes to the dnr.

 

[hickslawns]

I just don't think you could have expected any more than you got yesterday.

I can agree with this.

The DNR believes the deer population goals have not been met yet in many areas. Evidenced by the plan to move 7 counties from A to B and only one county from B to A. They will move forward with their plans to manage the deer population in Ohio in what they believe is the best interest of all involved and there isn't any real opposing position to alter that plan.

There is no outcry about the deer populations by hunters. What is going on here and a couple of other websites hardly constitutes a whimper, it's not even a bark and certainly no bite to it. As difficult as that is to accept, it is just a reality.

hard to argue this as well. We are a small fraction of the pie.

What some have described as defering to a script answer when asked about deer populations could well have been just an answer of what they believe to be true. I heard the same general answers from the fisheries guys when they were questioned about size limits for saugeyes and walleye populations in Erie, etc, etc. Just because the same answer is given does not necessarily imply scripting.

This is possible as well. However, they have the payroll to pay biologists, and people with the training to figure this out. How is it the guys on this website can logically analyze this and see the flaws in their methods, yet they are clueless? Is it an honest mistake? Or, are they ignoring these facts for alterior agendas? I don't know.

If there was a meeting ahead of time on how to address disgruntled deer hunters and I was the point guy designated to answer those questions. I am pretty certain that I would stick with very defined responses and wouldn't deviate much. Especially if I had the opportunity beforehand to read some of the comments on a few of the websites where some of the members think I'm a MF,er, cocksucker, idiot, brainless, son of a bitch, money grubbing sell out whore to the insurance companies. Yeah baby, those are the guys I want to talk to and work with on thier concerns!

Another very valid point. I am sure those chosen for the role ARE very good at listening and biting their tongue to these responses. I am sure the people appointed to answer these questions are very good at their jobs and very good at customer service. No doubt in my mind or they would have blown up at someone.

If the roles had been reversed how would you have responded to a tiny finge minority that openly speaks that way about you and your abilities?

In the end, if we as hunters feel we are being duped, then maybe instead of many squeaky voices we must speak in unison to be heard? I don't know. I am not the guy to make it happen, but I will join in such an organization to be heard. I don't want to see my counties turn into Fayette county. I have 3 young children and would love to see them grow up enjoying the outdoors and deer hunting the way I do. Right now, it looks like squirrel hunting is all I have to offer them. The property I just bought is loaded with squirrels. Outside of one property which is heavily managed for deer, I am just not seeing the deer on any of the other properties. It seems so clear to me that the system for estimating the population is flawed. Not sure what else might open their eyes to make them (at a minimum) acknowledge this could be flawed.

 

[xbowguy]

I believe your right Jlope...Organization is going to be tougher for them to deal with. I could be wrong, but sounds like they were afraid to just say "You think it is bad now, just wait and see how bad it gets from here as we're not done yet!" That could have turned into a bad situation, leaked to the media, and then they couldn't say the meeting was a success and everyone left satisfied.
Maybe we need to come up with a survey with a couple quick yes or no questions. Get several members to take it to the public. And present the % results to Media ourselves..... If they won't take it, take it to the on-line media or even both might be better?

 

[huntn2]

What some have described as defering to a script answer when asked about deer populations could well have been just an answer of what they believe to be true. I heard the same general answers from the fisheries guys when they were questioned about size limits for saugeyes and walleye populations in Erie, etc, etc. Just because the same answer is given does not necessarily imply scripting....


...If the roles had been reversed how would you have responded to a tiny finge minority that openly speaks that way about you and your abilities?

To preface this post, I haven't re-quoted Lundy's entire post for the sake of space. I don't think I have isolated anything to take it out of context while doing so.

The first bold section is part of the problem. This comes from all sides (ODNR, Hunters, Farmers, Insurance and public). This debate shouldn't be left to a subjective discussion. The ODNR should be supplying fact based reasoning to justify the goal they are striving for. Some of what we have tried to do through the threads on this forum is leverage the available facts to better understand. The problem is, those facts aren't telling us the same story that is being spewed.

The second bold section is directly connected to what I just said. I would leverage facts and not opinion to answer questions. If I didn't have the answer, I would get the contact information for the individual asking the question and advise that I would get the answer and follow up with them.

 

[Ohiosam]

Hello everyone, I was told about this forum from a gentleman I met yesterday at the D1 open house yesterday. I definitely recognize quite a few screennames on here as he said I would.

I left about as aggravated as I have the last 3 years, the circular rhetoric they use when you bring up certain subjects gets old.

To the poster who mentioned the crop damage permits and how they aren't used. I specifically brought this up because my in-laws (who hunt as well) wanted me to ask why they can no longer be used during deer season(s) as it is very hard to process the deer when we shoot them in the summer and we end up wasting a lot of the meat (in comparison to the deer we harvest during the fall seasons). The answer I got was that the ODNR pretty much doesn't care about the wasting of the meat, the permits are to kill the deer damaging the crops and if you shoot them in june or july they won't continue to eat, but if you shoot them in season they have already ate the crops. I tried to reason with the ODNR official regarding how distasteful that sounds to me and my in-laws but he said "you're either worried about the crop damage or you're a hunter, not both". I was very frustrated with that and after talking to my father-in-law he said they may not get any more crop damage permits b/c wasting the meat is not worth it for him.

Welcome to TOO!

I hunt around an orchard that has used a fair amount of the permits over the years. You are referring to the "in-season permits" that the ODNR issued for a few years then stopped. When they did away with them the WO told my friends that own the orchard that their options now were to use the new $15 tags. Personally I think they felt they were losing $$ from the in-season permits. They use the out of season tags but really don't like too, they would rather that they and their friends hunt them fairly. Now they are doing away with the option of the $15 tags in gun season I would expect the orchard will need to increase the use of out of season tags.

I firmly believe the change in the $15 tags is solely rooted in revenue not management. If it wasn't why would they be proposing adding an early ML season for does only while limiting doe harvests during gun week?

 

[Lundy]

Part of the plan is too resist any and all backlash and immediately stamp out any individual that brings it up. And they will continue with that until we are organized and bring the backlash in a unified voice. The anger is out there and I'm sure they're getting plenty of backlash its just unorganized individuals who are easy to discard.
.

No doubt a unified message of numbers would at a minimum demand attention from the DOW.

The challenge we be garnering involvement from even a small percentage of the 500,000 deer hunters in this State.

I watched Dan (I think) from the Buckeye Firearms Assoc work the wildlife guys yesterday in support of their handgun cartridges and 1/2 hr after sunset proposals. I overheard him tell the officer that he had verbal support from over 60 Ohio outdoors and hunting groups in Ohio and yet had only received two letters in support to present at the open house. They asked for letters of support and received just two. The message received by the DOW had he been able to deliver 60 letters in support from these organizations would have had much more impact and demanded DOW consideration at a minimum.

There are a lot of outdoors organizations, hunting clubs, gun clubs, sportsman clubs, archery clubs, etc, etc, etc. The challenge will be if someone or a group of someones can pull them all together into one unified message.

How many groups and how many of the 500,000 deer hunters will it take to make a united voice loud enough to be heard? I don't know but I do know it is one heck of a lot more than were represented at the open houses yesterday.

 

[brock ratcliff]

I'd say you nailed that, Lundy.

 

[mrex]

I'll be interested to hear the information on coyotes when you have time.

Condensed...they're eating a lot of deer.

 

[mrex]

Has anyone considered the law of unintended consequence or maybe even Newton’s 3rd law of motion as they might relate to this debate?

 

[Beentown]

Has anyone considered the law of unintended consequence or maybe even Newton

 

[Jackalope]

Has anyone considered the law of unintended consequence or maybe even Newton’s 3rd law of motion as they might relate to this debate?

As in? Did you consider them in 95 when pushing the same issue?

 

[brock ratcliff]

Do you mean by having the spotlight shined on them the DOW is taking a naturally defensive position? The reaction to be simply stating "You are wrong, end of discussion"?

 

[brock ratcliff]

Condensed...they're eating a lot of deer.

And was this something they had not factored into the equation, at least to the degree it perhaps should have been?

 

[Jackalope]

No doubt a unified message of numbers would at a minimum demand attention from the DOW.

The challenge we be garnering involvement from even a small percentage of the 500,000 deer hunters in this State.

I watched Dan (I think) from the Buckeye Firearms Assoc work the wildlife guys yesterday in support of their handgun cartridges and 1/2 hr after sunset proposals. I overheard him tell the officer that he had verbal support from over 60 Ohio outdoors and hunting groups in Ohio and yet had only received two letters in support to present at the open house. They asked for letters of support and received just two. The message received by the DOW had he been able to deliver 60 letters in support from these organizations would have had much more impact and demanded DOW consideration at a minimum.

There are a lot of outdoors organizations, hunting clubs, gun clubs, sportsman clubs, archery clubs, etc, etc, etc. The challenge will be if someone or a group of someones can pull them all together into one unified message.

How many groups and how many of the 500,000 deer hunters will it take to make a united voice loud enough to be heard? I don't know but I do know it is one heck of a lot more than were represented at the open houses yesterday.

The open house is a farce.. The only reason I attended was to judge the mood of the other hunters, talk with them about what they we're seeing, and see how many people showed up to complain about the numbers... I didn't talk with a single DOW employee about numbers or even share my opinion with them.. If I wanted to talk with a stump I would have went outside and done so.. The only way this will change is through an organized group bringing the heat through public channels. And don't worry, such community organizing plans are already being set in motion and planned.

 

[xbowguy]

Condensed...they're eating a lot of deer.

Thank You for this info Mike. I appreciate knowing what I was assuming is correct.

 

[Schu72]

The open house is a farce.. The only reason I attended was to judge the mood of the other hunters, talk with them about what they we're seeing, and see how many people showed up to complain about the numbers... I didn't talk with a single DOW employee about numbers or even share my opinion with them.. If I wanted to talk with a stump I would have went outside and done so.. The only way this will change is through an organized group bringing the heat through public channels. And don't worry, such community organizing plans are already being set in motion and planned.

Keep me posted even if it's privately. I'll be happy to do what I can in the Northeast District.

 

[Jackalope]

Condensed...they're eating a lot of deer.

It doesn't bother me what scape goat they choose to use to point the finger.. They still screwed up when they didn't factor that in.. We still have a large herd reduction in increasingly expanding areas.. And they still need to fix it... If I see them working towards a recovery goal I would allow them to put the screw up on head of the coyote instead of themselves all day.. I see that as a Win Win.. We get altered management plans designed to recover the deer populations, and we get to put focus on killing yotes.. What I won't tolerate is a business as usual continuation of bad management while simply blaming coyotes and saying there is nothing we can do..

 

[Gern186]

One amusing little bit about my chat. There was an older lady standing there listening and commenting. i would guess her to be in her seventies. She was trying to tell me the weather had to do with the decreased harvests. She was complaining about the hunters not doing their job. Said she had to run about 30 of them out of her fields that were driving the deer. She only allows 2 hunters at a time and they have to sign in/out so the others know when someone is hunting. While I appreciate the fact she DOES allow hunters some access, it was a bit frustrating to be interrupted by an older lady telling me the weather is the reason I was not seeing deer. She said the deer just don't move in bad weather. She specifically said they couldn't get wet in the rain or they got sick. Claims their mortality rates show they can get sick and die when the weather is bad. I asked her very nicely "Ma'am, that is some very interesting information. I would LOOOOOVE to see the data facts providing this information. I certainly have never known a deer yet to have a barn to come in and escape the rain. I think it would be very informative if you would let me know where I could find these facts about deer dieing because they were left out in the rain." At this point, her husband grabbed her arm and said it was time to go. Poor lady. I was raised to respect my elders, but I couldn't sit there and listen to absolute garbage. I had already waited 45min to an hour to speak with "the guy in the tie."

That defines my sig line to a T.....:smiley_coolpeace:

 

[Lundy]

It doesn't bother me what scape goat they choose to use to point the finger.. They still screwed up when they didn't factor that in.. We still have a large herd reduction in increasingly expanding areas............................ What I won't tolerate is a business as usual continuation of bad management while simply blaming coyotes and saying there is nothing we can do..

This is where I think the major disconnect exists.

They are NOT looking to expand the herd,they will not be looking to expand the herd, they are still in herd reduction mode.

What you call bad management resulting in a reduced herd the DOW might call bad management because the herd has not been reduced enough.

Why would they want to blame coyotes for anything, the population is still too high in their assessment.

"there is nothing we can do" of course they could do something to raise the deer population, except that is not the plan. The lower populations goals have not been met.


It is not that some of you are not on the same page as the DOW, you're not even reading the same book!

 

[Schu72]

This is where I think the major disconnect exists.

They are NOT looking to expand the herd,they will not be looking to expand the herd, they are still in herd reduction mode.

What you call bad management resulting in a reduced herd the DOW might call bad management because the herd has not been reduced enough.

Why would they want to blame coyotes for anything, the population is still too high in their assessment.

"there is nothing we can do" of course they could do something to raise the deer population, except that is not the plan. The lower populations goals have not been met.


It is not that some of you are not on the same page as the DOW, you're not even reading the same book!

No...we get it loud and clear. They want less deer...alot less deer. Eventhough they don't know how many we have.