ODOW Looking for Feedback on Waterfowl Season Dates

[Jackalope]

Its apples to oranges man. The majority of Ohio waterfowl hunters are pursuing birds that stage in the sandusky bay marsh region. A mere 2 hour flight across 2 counties will give you a damn good idea of what Ohio duck and goose hunters are going to experience within that couple weeks or even a month. The same cannot be said for deer. So let's see... Fly 2 counties for birds, or fly 88 counties for deer? I wonder which one would involve the most effort and resources...

Jim. You're so wrong man I don't know where to start. My original post said "resident goose populations". Sandusky bay has nothing to do with them. They prefer office parks, parking lots and playgrounds across the state. Their population has increased 14x over the years and per the NY DNR cause an estimated $28 each in property damage per year. What does that have to do with Sandusky marsh. Nothing.

As for waterfowl hunters ohio sold 28,000 waterfowl stamps in 2011 AND 2012 combined. Of that 28k only 54% bought a stamp both years. On average ohio only sells about 14,000 waterfowl stamps a year. This isn't an accurate number of hunters as it includes individuals that are collectors and birders. But for the sake of argument I'll give you all 14k as hunters. Remember that number. We'll come back to it.

The use of aerial FLIR as a management tool to estimate deer populations does not require a flight of all 88 counties. That's absurd. The states that utilize FLIR do so to establish a population baseline for specific areas. The areas are established by comparing a variety of information namely like habitat conditions to include available cover, food, agriculture, human population etc. These like areas across the state are grouped in to large habitat categories. To further narrow the scope and accuracy inside these large groups, other data is assigned a differential variable. For example. Habitat category 1 may include 9 counties across ohio with similar habitat. But they have a different hunter participation rate. A differing variable will be assigned to the other counties based upon their own participation rate using the FLIR surveyed area and their hunter participation rate as a baseline. These differing variables are applied to a large host of variable factors like harvest numbers, DVAs, predation and fawn mortality estimates. What this allows for is the ability to take a smaller sample of FLIR data as a solid baseline and extrapolate it across like habitat accounting for statistical variables. Most of the work is done behind a desk, not in a helicopter. But that helicopter baseline is a critical baseline that must be known.

Now back to that 14k waterfowl hunters. I'll do that in my next post in a moment.

 

[jagermeister]

Joe, you could very well be the best armchair biologist on the web. Seriously.

If you go back to MY original post, I said ducks are way easier to count than deer... Nothing about geese, but whatever, we can lump the two. Furthermore, Sandusky bay marsh region has PLENTY to do with resident geese bud. Have you ever spent a day in the area during peak breeding? I'd bet there are more goslings produced in those marshes and marinas than anywhere else in the state... And guess what, those same birds move south through the rest of Ohio. At the very least, its a significant amount that can't be ignored. But that's beside the point... These particular aerial surveys, which are what started this whole "debate," are designed for counting ducks not resident geese. If they were, they'd be flown in late June, not during duck season.

I really don't care where you're going with the next post. I made an opinionated statement about one aerial survey being easier than another, which now you choose to pick apart and throw in your 2000 cents about how it pertains to our horribly managed deer herd. Personally, I'm just getting tired of reading about it. Especially because of how many harvest threads I'm seeing, and how many wounded deer threads I'm seeing, and how many deer I'm hearing about strolling into corn piles, and ESPECIALLY because of how many deer I see during my travels in NW Ohio, where we have tremendously fewer deer than anywhere else in the state. I'm sorry but if anyone thinks the deer hunting in Ohio sucks right now you're terribly mistaken. That's my opinion and I'll end on that. Feel free to pick it apart as well.... This thread's already been off the tracks for a while.

 

[Beentown]

Its apples to oranges man. The majority of Ohio waterfowl hunters are pursuing birds that stage in the sandusky bay marsh region. A mere 2 hour flight across 2 counties will give you a damn good idea of what Ohio duck and goose hunters are going to experience within that couple weeks or even a month. The same cannot be said for deer. So let's see... Fly 2 counties for birds, or fly 88 counties for deer? I wonder which one would involve the most effort and resources...

I wonder the income difference for each? Does deer hunting bring in 40x more money than waterfowl? If so, then it should be worth it.

 

[Jackalope]

I wonder the income difference for each? Does deer hunting bring in 40x more money than waterfowl? If so, then it should be worth it.

More like 164x.. Revenue from deer hunters make up about 37% of the DOW yearly budget. While waterfowl hunters purchasing Ohio Wetland stamps make up about .6%

Hell. Ohio collects almost 2x the revenue from nonresident deer tags alone than they do resident waterfowl hunters. 341K for waterfowl vs 960K for NR deer tags. lol

 

[jagermeister]

I wonder the income difference for each? Does deer hunting bring in 40x more money than waterfowl? If so, then it should be worth it.

More like 164x.. Revenue from deer hunters make up about 37% of the DOW yearly budget. While waterfowl hunters purchasing Ohio Wetland stamps make up about .6%

Hell. Ohio collects almost 2x the revenue from nonresident deer tags alone than they do resident waterfowl hunters. 341K for waterfowl vs 960K for NR deer tags. lol

Again, what's that have to do with this discussion? Nobody said an aerial survey for deer wouldn't be worthwhile.

 

[Carpn]

Whats your point tho ? Its not like the DNR isn't putting the largest part of the budget towards deer related issues . And even if its not a exact percentage the deer herd is the cash cow of the DNR allowing them to fund land acquisition, school education programs , as well as a long list of projects that the people of Ohio benefit from but deer hunters gain nothing from .. Thats life,

 

[Jackalope]

Joe, you could very well be the best armchair biologist on the web. Seriously.

.

No armchair biology. You're simply attempting to converse about a subject with someone who has devoted an astronomical amount of time researching the subject both inside and outside our state. Time which includes talking to private and state biologist from all over to include some previous and current DNR employees. If you attended the TOO hunt this year or last in Athens county when Tonk was there, you would've seen I can hold my own, and often better, during lengthy conversations with our state deer puppet, I mean biologist.

As for your personal observation about our deer population. It is just that, and really isn't worth a hill of beans. Especially when looking at the things that matter like facts and numbers. As I type this Ohio is set for a -13% decline in total harvest this year.

 

[jagermeister]

No armchair biology. You're simply attempting to converse about a subject with someone who has devoted an astronomical amount of time researching the subject both inside and outside our state. Time which includes talking to private and state biologist from all over to include some previous and current DNR employees. If you attended the TOO hunt this year or last in Athens county when Tonk was there, you would've seen I can hold my own, and often better, during lengthy conversations with our state deer puppet, I mean biologist.

As for your personal observation about our deer population. It is just that, and really isn't worth a hill of beans. Especially when looking at the things that matter like facts and numbers. As I type this Ohio is set for a -13% decline in total harvest this year.

If you're talking facts, the fact remains that the DOWs goal was to reduce the population all along, and that's been accomplished. Now I think you'll begin to see the reins being pulled back and things will stabilize. All I know is, there's an awful lot of bitching and moaning coming from people who are still seeing deer and still killing deer. There's a reason why we have so many people traveling from other states to hunt here in Ohio... Because it's good. Well because it's cheap, too, but that'll change eventually.

 

[Jackalope]

Whats your point tho ? Its not like the DNR isn't putting the largest part of the budget towards deer related issues . And even if its not a exact percentage the deer herd is the cash cow of the DNR allowing them to fund land acquisition, school education programs , as well as a long list of projects that the people of Ohio benefit from but deer hunters gain nothing from .. Thats life,

You are correct, and that's fine. But they should recognize the cash cow as such and treat it accordingly. Not set out to purposefully lame the cash cow and stab the people in the back who are making those things possible. It's like a snake eating it's own tail. The original point was it's not "WAY" harder as some claim to count deer than it is waterfowl. And the cost isn't astronomical at all. If they can afford to do it for a subset of individuals that account for only .6% of their budget they should proportionately be able to afford doing it for their cash cow. Even if their goal is a reduction there still needs to be a scientific baseline of live population estimates to start with, and subsequent checks and balances to monitor the progress and impact of such a reduction. Not just count dead deer and think that gives you good data. By doing that, if you were initially wrong, you run the risk of severely decimating populations in areas with unaccounted for variances. Then what happens is you see counties with harvest numbers the lowest they've been in 20 years. And you see statewide reductions of -13% like this year. Which is something like a -30% decline over 5 years ago. That's not allowing the cash cow to further the progress for all Ohioans, that's shooting yourself in the foot and biting the hand that feeds you. It's lunacy really.

 

[Jackalope]

If you're talking facts, the fact remains that the DOWs goal was to reduce the population all along, and that's been accomplished. Now I think you'll begin to see the reins being pulled back and things will stabilize. All I know is, there's an awful lot of bitching and moaning coming from people who are still seeing deer and still killing deer. There's a reason why we have so many people traveling from other states to hunt here in Ohio... Because it's good. Well because it's cheap, too, but that'll change eventually.

"Still seeing and killing deer" that's your yardstick you judge by? lmao. So, long as two deer are left to see and kill its all good in you're eyes right? Well hell. People in Pa and Wv have nothing to complain about at all then, Compared to Death Valley they're doing fabulous. You're delirious. While that was their goal, they have no idea where or how much they've actually done.


Reduce the population from what original scientific baseline?
Reduce the population to what lower baseline?
What is the number today?
What is it predicted to be next year?
What is the desired rate of reduction?
What is the impact analysts to the billion dollar industry that is ohio hunting.

Anything less than being able to answer those questions in a through and scientific manner is MISmanagement no matter the intentions or plan. "There are still deer around" is not acceptable proof of a successful reduction plan. The next time you go duck hunting just go ahead and shoot about 50 over your limit, be sure to use your logic with the GW, "there are still a couple left flying, more than other places, so I'm innocent." Lol

 

[finelyshedded]

Jim, I think Ohio is closer to being as decimated in deer numbers as what PA and MI are than you think. I'm sure areas near our largest cities still have TOO many deer but that's about it! Our DOW has made some nice coin over the years off our deer herd and we as hunters have benefited greatly as well but my friend, that's going to change I'm afraid. Had I not been blessed with an early opportunity at my target deer this year I probably might still be carrying a tag. The deer numbers are really down here in the SW part of the state and seeing a deer on my travels is nearly nonexistent these days. Kinda weird as this is very new to me?!?!?

As for ducks and geese, I'm not a waterfowler but back in the 70,80 and early 90's you'd just see geese fly over every so often and mainly during migration. Now, they're a friggin over populated pest! Our rural areas,subdivisions and parks are covered with them year around! Why does this sit well with the DOW and tolerated?

 

[jagermeister]

"Still seeing and killing deer" that's your yardstick you judge by? lmao. So, long as two deer are left to see and kill its all good in you're eyes right? Well hell. People in Pa and Wv have nothing to complain about at all then, Compared to Death Valley they're doing fabulous. You're delirious. While that was their goal, they have no idea where or how much they've actually done.


Reduce the population from what original scientific baseline?
Reduce the population to what lower baseline?
What is the number today?
What is it predicted to be next year?
What is the desired rate of reduction?
What is the impact analysts to the billion dollar industry that is ohio hunting.

Anything less than being able to answer those questions in a through and scientific manner is MISmanagement no matter the intentions or plan. "There are still deer around" is not acceptable proof of a successful reduction plan. The next time you go duck hunting just go ahead and shoot about 50 over your limit, be sure to use your logic with the GW, "there are still a couple left flying, more than other places, so I'm innocent." Lol

That's not exactly the logic that was going through my head but that's how you interpreted it, so be it. There is definitely a shit load of delirious people on the forums these days... I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them.

 

[jagermeister]

Jim, I think Ohio is closer to being as decimated in deer numbers as what PA and MI are than you think. I'm sure areas near our largest cities still have TOO many deer but that's about it! Our DOW has made some nice coin over the years off our deer herd and we as hunters have benefited greatly as well but my friend, that's going to change I'm afraid. Had I not been blessed with an early opportunity at my target deer this year I probably might still be carrying a tag. The deer numbers are really down here in the SW part of the state and seeing a deer on my travels is nearly nonexistent these days. Kinda weird as this is very new to me?!?!?

As for ducks and geese, I'm not a waterfowler but back in the 70,80 and early 90's you'd just see geese fly over every so often and mainly during migration. Now, they're a friggin over populated pest! Our rural areas,subdivisions and parks are covered with them year around! Why does this sit well with the DOW and tolerated?

Why does it sit well with them? I dont know... Perhaps our state's waterfowl managers haven't been through their corruption and incompetence trainings yet.

 

[Carpn]

Waterfowl are a federally managed migratory bird . Even tho a state may want you to kill more birds they are only alloted X number of days and X number of birds to be allowed . For example right now the feds allow a max of 60 days to duck hunt with a max limit of 6 per day . Regular goose season is 75 days and 3 and early goose is 15 days and 5 . States can make shorter season or lower limits but cannot exceed whats allowed by feds.
I'd also venture to say a portion of the states migratory management budget includes a large portion of federal money due to its migratory status and federal management

 

[AMiller]

In hopes to get this thread somewhat back on track, the reason why I was asking how they did their aerial surveys is because they seem to be vastly inaccurate (on the low side.) So if they are going to use this inaccurate data to help pick our season dates, how good of dates are we really going to get. Also it seems a lot of birds will stage outside of the WMA and therefore not get counted. But I do understand that they are just looking for the masses to see when birds are migrating through, which in turn results in the intended outcome to correctly pick dates during peak migration.

I follow the aerial surveys of the upper Illinois and Mississippi river through hunting season. They take photos of the refuges and then lay a grid pattern over them. They will estimate how many ducks there are in each grid and add it all up for the entire refuge. This is done by Forbes Biological Station. I wasn’t sure if OH DNR was using the same method.

 

[Jackalope]

In hopes to get this thread somewhat back on track, the reason why I was asking how they did their aerial surveys is because they seem to be vastly inaccurate (on the low side.) So if they are going to use this inaccurate data to help pick our season dates, how good of dates are we really going to get. Also it seems a lot of birds will stage outside of the WMA and therefore not get counted. But I do understand that they are just looking for the masses to see when birds are migrating through, which in turn results in the intended outcome to correctly pick dates during peak migration.

I follow the aerial surveys of the upper Illinois and Mississippi river through hunting season. They take photos of the refuges and then lay a grid pattern over them. They will estimate how many ducks there are in each grid and add it all up for the entire refuge. This is done by Forbes Biological Station. I wasn’t sure if OH DNR was using the same method.

Our DNR using inaccurate population data to set season dates and bag limits. I don't believe it. Just be happy it's inaccurate on the low side and not the high side. If it was the other way and they started thinking there are too many we may end up with very little when they're done.

 

[Jackalope]

Why does it sit well with them? I dont know... Perhaps our state's waterfowl managers haven't been through their corruption and incompetence trainings yet.

When they schedule it tell them not to take the same class our game wardens and district managers took. The instructor must have completely left out the chapter on how not to get caught.

 

[Carpn]

Maybe waterfowl numbers are doin great because hunting them over cornpiles has been illegal since the 40s or 50s I think . Ahh ,who am I kidding it obviously wouldn't matter . Maybe we can try and get the feds to legalize it .
It surely wouldn't make it easier.

 

[Carpn]

This yr was by far the best waterfowl season ive experienced pretty much my best hunting season period if ya consider all species combined. I consider myself a equally addicted waterfowler/bowhunter Turkey hunter . I love em all equally and for different reasons and could never choose one .

 

[jagermeister]

Maybe waterfowl numbers are doin great because hunting them over cornpiles has been illegal since the 40s or 50s I think . Ahh ,who am I kidding it obviously wouldn't matter . Maybe we can try and get the feds to legalize it .
It surely wouldn't make it easier.

Come on, Jake! You know baiting with corn is no different than say, using an autoloader instead of a pump gun... or using a mojo instead of a jerk rig... or using flocked decoys instead of painted decoys. It's all relative man! Although, I have heard of some elusive drake mallards biting the dust over corn when they'd otherwise be unkillable. Must just be coincidental. lmao