I get Joe's point. That 2-4hr stretch would have been boring driving alone. Joe always keeps things entertaining. Lots of pines in MS with random hunting towers in open areas here or there and a feeder. Definitely not Ohio.
Hunting "Mature Whitetails" in Ohio.
- Thread starter Jackalope
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I see what you're saying bu the the Mississippi study is dealing with deer that no matter how far they meandered they would continue to be in a pine forest. If the nutritional value and biodiversity of a property in Ohio was lacking the deer would simply move to the neighboring farm. Much as you have seen them do with your farm post implementation of food plots. They wouldn't stay on the farm and continue to suffer nutritionally to the point that it impacts their body size and antler development. I don't believe Ohio has a nutritionally deficient area large enough to see an impact like this.
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Joe I do get your point. But I still don't think there is much of a genetics difference in area to area. I still think the difference in deer sizes even people sizes is "shit just happens".
Point being my dad was 5'8", I'm 5'10" on a good day and my son is 6'1" and my 2 grandson are 6'3". I see no genetics here and nothing on the other side of the family. Each generation just has better food available. Or so I like to think.
It is a proven fact that the further north deer are the larger their body is to combat the cold winters.
Point being my dad was 5'8", I'm 5'10" on a good day and my son is 6'1" and my 2 grandson are 6'3". I see no genetics here and nothing on the other side of the family. Each generation just has better food available. Or so I like to think.
It is a proven fact that the further north deer are the larger their body is to combat the cold winters.
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If by "better food" you mean laced with growth hormones; then yes I will agree with you that today's food is more conducive to growth than in previous generations.
But genetics from one deer to the next plays a huge role even in the same property. If your 6'3 grandson boinked a midget do you think the kid would be 6'5?
Geez Joe. Only you can bring Frank's grandkids into this and make it feel icky. lmao
Frank think of different characteristics of different nationalities. Some are shorter, some countries have more blondes or red heads. They are all humans. Why couldn't whitetails in different parts of the country have different genetics? Here in NW Ohio we see fewer non-typical deer (in my opinion) than in SE Ohio. Seems like most of our racks are narrow and heavy. It is rare to see one real wide around here in my opinion. I can buy into different genetics along with nutrition playing into this. I believe we have better soil than SE Ohio. They sure seem to kill more big bucks (although they have many more deer to shoot as well which factors into the equation.) Not trying to gang up on you. Just thought a different perspective might change your opinion.
Sorry to help the derail. Mature bucks- if they aren't there, you can't kill them. Carry on.
Frank think of different characteristics of different nationalities. Some are shorter, some countries have more blondes or red heads. They are all humans. Why couldn't whitetails in different parts of the country have different genetics? Here in NW Ohio we see fewer non-typical deer (in my opinion) than in SE Ohio. Seems like most of our racks are narrow and heavy. It is rare to see one real wide around here in my opinion. I can buy into different genetics along with nutrition playing into this. I believe we have better soil than SE Ohio. They sure seem to kill more big bucks (although they have many more deer to shoot as well which factors into the equation.) Not trying to gang up on you. Just thought a different perspective might change your opinion.
Sorry to help the derail. Mature bucks- if they aren't there, you can't kill them. Carry on.
motorbreaker
*Supporting Member I*
MK, This is not true, At least for northern Michigan where I hunted for years. Its big woods up there like that in Joes post. The deer just don't get very big up there. I've never seen a buck heavier then #160 up there, And that was a 6 year old 8 point. I have seen 200+ lb. deer in southern Michigan where there is good soil.
Michigan is very deverse from one area to another. With the heavier bucks almost always coming from ag areas with better soil.
I believe there are genetics differences on any given property, If there wasn't then every deer would be the same.
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There's about 15 unique subspecies of Whitetails in the US. In ohio it's Odocoileus virginianus Borealis. In Mississippi it's Odocoileus virginianus virginianus and Odocoileus virginianus Osceola
Funny that the northern Michigan deer aren't that big but when i was up in Saskatchewan Canada some guys brought deer in to camp that were 250 to 300 pounds and this was big woods, not ag areas.
Hell the yotes and even birds up there were freakin huge.lol
Hell the yotes and even birds up there were freakin huge.lol
motorbreaker
*Supporting Member I*
I agree. Maybe it has something to do with habitat and nutrition. The herd in Northern Michigan was allowed to over populate substantially for way to many years. The native browse had to take a big hit. The old timers up there didn't believe in killing doe. Crazy how times change things.
Just saying 'no good nutrition feed makes no big bodied deer'. I'm out of this post and on to other things I can control here on the farm. Good nutrition for my local deer herd. In 3 short years I see a big difference in the quality and number of deer I see on the farm and as I continue to improve I'm sure it will only get better.
I forgot to mention age does mean larger deer but without the proper nutrition the older deer just won't get to it's possible largest size.
Now I'm done. LOL
I forgot to mention age does mean larger deer but without the proper nutrition the older deer just won't get to it's possible largest size.
Now I'm done. LOL
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We're not saying nutrition doesn't help buddy. It absolutely does. But genetics and age plays a huge role in bigger deer. You can feed a midget all the wholesome fruits and grains you want but they're still going to be a midget. This is why deer farmers but deer based on genetics and not feed quality. Food can only do so much but genetics and age reigns the biggest factors.
Fullbore
Senior Member
Lol..... Feed a midget wholesome fruits and grains, but they're still a midget pretty much sums it up! Great illustration Joe! Lol
However, Frank has some good arguments as well.
It'd be an interesting study to separate twin buck fawns sired by a buck of superior genes and a set from a buck of inferior genes from each other after being weened and place one in AG rich environment and one in an the exact opposite like in the blue ridge mountains where no AG would be available. Also another test using same type fawns from the Midwest and send one superior gene fawn to Florida and the other to Canada and the same test ran using twin inferior gene fawns.
It's been proven that food and climate are both factors influencing the body size of deer ranging in Florida versus the deer ranging in Manitoba. Common sense tells you nibbling on palmetto and Spanish moss versus hordes of grain is going to make a huge difference in body size and that's not even mentioning the climate differences each group has to nutritionally prepare their bodies for.
I'm in the group that superior genes from both doe and buck being passed along anywhere in the Midwest and Canada where a buck can reach 6.5 plus years of age is perfect ingredients for top end world class potential.
It's been proven that food and climate are both factors influencing the body size of deer ranging in Florida versus the deer ranging in Manitoba. Common sense tells you nibbling on palmetto and Spanish moss versus hordes of grain is going to make a huge difference in body size and that's not even mentioning the climate differences each group has to nutritionally prepare their bodies for.
I'm in the group that superior genes from both doe and buck being passed along anywhere in the Midwest and Canada where a buck can reach 6.5 plus years of age is perfect ingredients for top end world class potential.
yotehunter
Member
I agree genetics and age are the two ingredients. Like said earlier. I do think nutrition also plays a role. I think anything one of these figure into the equation. My area has the genetics and nutrition. It lacks the age. If you have the age and nutrition but not genetics then you are still.missing a vital part. They play hand and handle.
I also agree with you Jake! I believe age is the key component because without it genetics and nutrition don't mean squat.
Another blast from the past and I read this different than I did 5.5 years ago.
I finally have a property that holds mature deer. All natural hunting with no bait or even mineral sites. Problem we have is hiking trails, which equals to pressure. It is hard to get the mature deer to move during daylight hours.
We try and set up on edges and only hunt perfect winds and conditions. We also try and only hint escape routes. Plenty of good areas, but access is horrible! You simply can't get to them.
Well, I think I figured out how to get to the best bedding spot on the property this year. As odd as it sounds, you have to wait until after 9 to walk in. Gotta let the deer bed down or else you bump them out going in. So my addition to bumping this thread is sometimes you have to think outside of the box and do something differe t than everyone else.
I finally have a property that holds mature deer. All natural hunting with no bait or even mineral sites. Problem we have is hiking trails, which equals to pressure. It is hard to get the mature deer to move during daylight hours.
We try and set up on edges and only hunt perfect winds and conditions. We also try and only hint escape routes. Plenty of good areas, but access is horrible! You simply can't get to them.
Well, I think I figured out how to get to the best bedding spot on the property this year. As odd as it sounds, you have to wait until after 9 to walk in. Gotta let the deer bed down or else you bump them out going in. So my addition to bumping this thread is sometimes you have to think outside of the box and do something differe t than everyone else.
triple_duece
Ragin Cajun.
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Well let me add this. You can have the best land, best soil and best genetics. Your neighbors have more influence than the 3 combined. Now if you own a giant block, your chance of getting that buck to maturity is much better. I’ve dealt with this for years hunting my own property. All around me they were mowing everything down and we passed on most of them saying “one more year”.
After a few years my neighbors were denied crossing my access on my property (bridge) and finally gave it up. It sat idol for a year and my north neighbor was an outlaw. He went to jail and the past 4 years we are seeing not only good bucks but recruitment class bucks growing. This has made my property much better. The south property have a couple guys that are like minded as us and the north property hasn’t been leased out since..... I need to lease it.
All in all, we love hunting and shooting deer to eat. We no longer kill does and try to kill 3-4 and older bucks. Some great two year olds that could’ve easily been killed never showed up as 3 yr olds. This brings another issue at hand.....night road hunters. I’m sure that’s where my great two yr old went last year. Hoping this yrs 2 yr old makes it as he will be looked at when 4 if he survives.
After a few years my neighbors were denied crossing my access on my property (bridge) and finally gave it up. It sat idol for a year and my north neighbor was an outlaw. He went to jail and the past 4 years we are seeing not only good bucks but recruitment class bucks growing. This has made my property much better. The south property have a couple guys that are like minded as us and the north property hasn’t been leased out since..... I need to lease it.
All in all, we love hunting and shooting deer to eat. We no longer kill does and try to kill 3-4 and older bucks. Some great two year olds that could’ve easily been killed never showed up as 3 yr olds. This brings another issue at hand.....night road hunters. I’m sure that’s where my great two yr old went last year. Hoping this yrs 2 yr old makes it as he will be looked at when 4 if he survives.
I agree with a lot of what’s already been posted in this thread. One common theme that keeps coming up is the impact of pressure on mature deer. But if you’ll notice, the context it’s presented in keeps referring to pressure from other hunters. No one here (unless I missed it) has put the spotlight on the hunting pressure from OURSELVES. This is a huge point in my opinion. So often I hear guys talk about someone else’s hunting strategies being the cause of their own misfortunes. Yes this happens all the time. However don’t be so focused on others that you fail to see your own impact as well.
I’m a big proponent of “observation” sets... That is, hanging back in low-impact setups, gathering crucial intel, until you have enough data to formulate an ambush with the highest probability of success. People I know that consistently kill big deer are really good at getting in close to a buck’s core or bedding area. And you simply can’t do that effectively unless you 1) know EXACTLY where that is and 2) you have a good idea of how a buck comes and goes through there. Without gathering superior intel before making your move, you’re literally just throwing a dart at the board. And taking a big risk because the mature deer usually don’t offer second chances.
Pressure from others is one thing. But deer don’t usually leave an area completely. They find somewhere that they still feel secure, despite the hunting pressure around them. The trick is hunting smart enough OURSELVES to identify these areas and know when the time is right to make our move.
I’m a big proponent of “observation” sets... That is, hanging back in low-impact setups, gathering crucial intel, until you have enough data to formulate an ambush with the highest probability of success. People I know that consistently kill big deer are really good at getting in close to a buck’s core or bedding area. And you simply can’t do that effectively unless you 1) know EXACTLY where that is and 2) you have a good idea of how a buck comes and goes through there. Without gathering superior intel before making your move, you’re literally just throwing a dart at the board. And taking a big risk because the mature deer usually don’t offer second chances.
Pressure from others is one thing. But deer don’t usually leave an area completely. They find somewhere that they still feel secure, despite the hunting pressure around them. The trick is hunting smart enough OURSELVES to identify these areas and know when the time is right to make our move.