Bow harvest #'s

[jagermeister]

You did Jim. One thing I noticed right off the bat is the fact that hill country deer don't always travel into the prevailing wind like they do at home, but their travel routes in the woods are more predictable than in open country, or so it seemed.

That's the exact same thing I noticed when I first hunted the hill country, too. Back home, we selected a lot of stand sites simply based on prevailing winds... Not the case down in the hills. Down there, it's all about travel routes and paths of least resistance, making killing the deer much easier, IMO. Also it's another reason I switched to the Scent Smoker... because there's really no such thing as a prevailing wind in the hills.

 

[tuffshot]

I have a therory for the decline. A few reasons that come to mind. Leased land, outfitters, unhuntable land and pounded state land with deforestation.

 

[jagermeister]

I have a therory for the decline. A few reasons that come to mind. Leased land, outfitters, unhuntable land and pounded state land with deforestation.

This is a factor that goes unnoticed a lot of times and I'm glad you brought it up, tuffy. I was actually thinking about this on my drive back from morgan county last week. With the ever-growing popularity and stigma of shooting monster bucks, the amount of leased acres has risen significantly over the past decade. Farms that used to see numerous groups of hunters each season are now being locked up by individuals, or maybe just a "few." There's the assumption that less hunters equates to better chances at shooting Mr. Big... which is generally true, of course, simply because it increases the likelihood of a buck to live beyond maturity. Now I'm no rocket scientist, but it seems to me like reducing the amount of hunters on a piece of property is going to reduce the number of deer killed on said property. Not to mention the fact that these leased properties typically involve extensive deer management strategies, which attract deer from the surrounding properties... thus reducing harvests from the non-leased ground. Damn.... why doesn't anyone ever bring this up???

 

[Kaiser878]

Ive said it once Ill say it again. Id rather see less deer and have more big deer any day. I probably saw less deer while hunting this year than I ever have. In my area. Me, my friends and neighbors have a good grasp on our doe population. The last two years I have killed my two biggest bucks to date...Was it a result of Killing more does? I Dont know, but it sure does seem like it correlates. We are seeing more quality of our bucks as well. I have two bonified shooters still lurknig behind my house. I have put the one on the "off limits" list. As he is only 3 yo.

Is he a good deer? heck ya! Would I struggle to pass him? you bet.and I did. But it was early. This deer has phenomenal potential. He is only an 8, but I like to see big 8s.
I also have another 3 yo I put on the off limits list as well...for the same reasons!

The deer that I want killed is a deer I believe to be atleast 4.5, possibly 5.5. He has been around two years and didnt show much of an improvement from last year. This is my dads target as of rt now!

Is he a giant? no. But he will score the same as the 3 yo and has proven he is lacking potential. So why wast a deer with potential when you have a deer that has shown a lack of?

ITs common sense..Less does means more cruising. YEs it does increase your chances of your deer wandering and getting shot on neighboring properties but guess what? WHen your hunting 20 and 30 acre pieces of ground, all the does in the world are not gonna keep them there. But I like my odds of hunting 1 or 2 mature does when they are coming in heat...BEcause you are almost guranteed to see one of those desired deer.

A lot of guys have to see deer when hunting. If they dont see deer then they get pissed or discouraged. Well remember why we hunt. We hunt to escape everyday realities and enjoy ourselves in the woods. No one here is starving and is hunting to stay alive.

I dont know if anyone watches midwestwhitetail or not..but Bill Winke has about the same mindset that I do. He hammers does and hunts the does that are still there. You will hear him say it over and over..talknig about he knows he wont see a lot of deer, but the potential for a good buck is there. THe more does you have the less competition for breeding that takes place. Which means that scrub bucks with inderior genes have a higher likely hood of breeding does. resulting in not so great bucks in the future. I have two deer I need shot...but I guess Im guilty because I didnt wanna waste my tag on them. Both are 5.5+ Both are bullys that are breeding deer and have terrible genes!

I had the following deer at 20 yards a week and a half ago. HE is an absolute stud. This photo does him no justice. HE has super heavy and long beams. Just doesnt have crap for tines or length

Here is the second one. Again, huge beams, but a crappy left side.

Both deer need shot. The good news is they dont live routinely at my house, THey are from about a half mile to a mile away.. But they still cruise my area.

My point in all this is as follows:

Everyone likes to see a lot of deer when hunting. Everyone likes to see big bucks. Unfortunately these two do not always coincide. So sometimes you need to make a sacrifice. Im willing to not see deer every sit to ensure seeing a mature buck I wanna kill..and having the opportunity to kill him.

 

[Darron]

Kaiser,

I agree with your point of view. However, there are some of us that do not get a chance to hunt as many days as we would like. Some people are lucky enough to hunt 30-40+ days a year for deer. If I had that much time to hunt, it wouldn't hurt my feelings to go several days without seeing deer.

I choose to stay off my property (except for fall turkey opener) until the last week in October. I then will hunt no more than 10 days with my bow (I'm not much on late season bow hunting after all the gun seasons). Due to my limited amount of time in the deer woods (even when I add bow and gun days I'm looking at less than 20 days hunting deer a year) I would like to see deer on most if not all hunts.

You have to look at it from other people's perspective as well. For those of you lucky enough to be able to hunt 30+ days a year going several days without seeing a deer isn't a big deal. In my case, I go 3 or 4 days without seeing a deer and that is 1/4th of my time in the deer woods without a deer sighting. That can get discouraging in a hurry. Sure I deer hunt to get away from the hassles of work and home life, but at the same time I don't sit out in the woods to watch the leaves blow either.

The shooting as many doe as you can arugment can go both ways. The less doe you have means more territory covered by bucks. However, if you have a buck using your property as its core area and you have no does around, it will search even further and could get shot by neighbors. I personally try to go somewhat light on my doe harvests. I like having some doe around because when my neighbors are stacking up does, guess where their bucks go to look for does? You got it. I never take more than 2 doe off my property a year and I see decent rutting activity every year.

In short, there needs to be a balance. I feel having too many anterless deer can be detrimental to the overall habitat and native browse to a particular area. In the same breath, having not enough can make home bound bucks look even further for their partners.

 

[Jackalope]

And as I've said since 2008 Kaiser.. We still have our bigger bucks in VC. The problem isn't the buck population.. It's the dramatic reduction in Does.... However at a point your bucks are going to feel the pain too.. Not every doe throws a 160 class 3 year old. less of them means less of those bucks will be thrown.. Less does means less button bucks. Less button bucks eventually means less trophy bucks.. "You" can't kill the shit out of the does and expect just as many big bucks forever.. And by "you" i mean everyone.. Unless you control what all of the surrounding landowner in a 6 mile area shoot.. It's simple principals of breeding.

 

[Kaiser878]

Darron,
I realize this and I agree with you. Some people dont get the time to hunt htat others do. IT does get miserable sitting and watching leaves and squirrels when you are there to see deer. Like I said before to, this is my way of thinking. SO that doesnt mean I am saying it is right,wrong or indifferent. THis is just how I think and what I do. Everyone else can do what they want. One thing that I have that you say you dont is a strong hold on the neighbors. They dont seem to shoot many does. At one farm its nothing to sit and count 8 does in one field. Drive to the other side and see 8 more then check the cams and see that there were 6 or 7 more standing in the food plot in the middle of the property. I do realize that some areas can withstand more harvest than others. When I speak, I am speaking of my area.

Joe,
I realize this. But what about your theory on button buck dispersal? You are always gonna be adding new bucks every year. ITs just the way it works. I get new bucks every year I have never seen before. At the same time I lose 3 yo deer and never see them again. Where hte hell do they go? I have read some articles on shooting does that throw button bucks because the bucks are more likely to stick around. WHether thats true or not, I have no proof to back it.

Although, what is a gurantee is that if you have to many does than you are gonig to get breeding from undesirable bucks. Thats one of the whole purposes behind QDM. Mind you, one of many. I am not scholar on QDM by any means. Another factor that needs figured in is genetics. Some areas just dont have good genetics. So it doesnt matter how many does you shoot or dont shoot, it is never gonna produce large bucks.. Like it has been said before, does pass good and bad genetics along just as the bucks do!

One of my best farms is now one of my worst. For the last 3 years I have a guy line hunting the bedding area. Since he started hunting I have seen a steady decline in the quality of the bucks on that property. In the last three years he has haphazardly wounded 5 different bucks that I know of. Most of them 2 and 3 yo deer. That is a problem and has served to be more influential on quality bucks than any doe shooting I have ever seen. An area cant withstand something like that. Not to mention if the neighbors are shooting one or two bucks off their properties. That is a sure fire way to ruin an area fast, and it has proven rightfully so.

All I know is I have seen larger bucks more consistently over the last few years. WHen I say larger I mean 3 yo+ 130+ deer. People can do what they want...but when what they want isnt working then maybe they should think about changing it. THe worst thing anyone can do is shoot button bucks. Everyone makes a mistake occasionally, but the intentional shooting of button bucks is just plain stupid. Thats why binoculars are essential as well...So mistakes dont happen. There are so many factors that people over look or brush off. THen they wonder why they dont see quality bucks.

I have also questioned whether shooting mature bucks in consecutive years off the same property has a negative impact on the quality of a herd. I have information at my disposal to inform me of either way.

 

[hickslawns]

Good points on both sides. Sadly, I don't think it will matter which opinion is right. It looks like we are going to see what hunting is like with fewer deer whether we want to or not. Hopefully, Kaiser is correct. If so, then with our reduction in deer, we will see an improvement in bucks!

 

[brock ratcliff]

I hunted an enormous property in Buffalo Co Wisconsin a couple of years ago. The landowner would let you shoot a doe if you wanted, but it was not something he required. I saw deer at about a 1 to 1 ratio, and I saw hundreds. Seriously, I never in my wildest dreams thought there was a place with that many deer, and that many HUGE deer. The landowner shot a 194" buck on opening day. He has killed 5 bucks on opening weekend of archery season the last 6 years. They are from 170 - 194". You will not convince me, or him, that he would be killing bigger bucks by shooting more does. BTW, deer hunting there was FUN. To go to the stand knowing you were going to see deer made it much easier to get out of bed. I see deer in my area about every third time to the stand these days. A few years ago, I would get skunked maybe once or twice a season. Then again, my favorite farm is in one of the very lowest kill counties in the state, and thankfully it has finally been moved back to zone A.

 

[Kaiser878]

That would be amazing. But you explained it when u said the ratio. 1:1 is ridiculous. I don't think I've ever hunter a piece of ground with a 1:1 ratio. How does he keep it at a 1:1 without killing does? Not t mention the habitat has to be able to support that kind of deer herd. There had to have been a ton of bucks for the ratio to have been that tight.

 

[brock ratcliff]

There was tons of bucks. When I asked him about shooting does his answer was simple; "Why? They are born at a 1 to 1. If we only kill 6 bucks a year, we don't need to kill 70 does." He based the guess on ratio on actual sightings, and mine mirrored his. BTW, the habitat is very similar to Ohio's- rolling oak hills and crops in the bottoms.

 

[brock ratcliff]

BTW, I see MORE bucks in Fayette Co, northern Highland, and NW Ross county than I do does. It's been that way for three or four years now.

 

[tuffshot]

With that close of buck to doe ration it is detrimental to the herd. Core bucks are doing all the breeding.
I have a simular situation in the area I hunt. For the last 3 years a hot doe is dogged by at least 4 young bucks and very few fully mature bucks.