Down

[Milo]

this is THE first deer hunter survey i have ever received and i have been doing this for 24 years now. his comments are callous and ignorant at best in his recent press releases. If your going to guess, i would be recommend it be on the cautious side. I'm not seeing that, in fact it appears reckless from my hunter vantage point.

 

[brock ratcliff]

And basing the estimated herd size on harvest numbers is the flaw. As has been pointed out a dozen times, if there are ten, you can kill four. If there are only 6, you can still kill four. Seriously, all I'm hoping for is a closer look. They are nearly GONE in areas....huge areas, I'm not referring to just a hundred acre parcel.

 

[jagermeister]

And basing the estimated herd size on harvest numbers is the flaw. As has been pointed out a dozen times, if there are ten, you can kill four. If there are only 6, you can still kill four. Seriously, all I'm hoping for is a closer look. They are nearly GONE in areas....huge areas, I'm not referring to just a hundred acre parcel.

I'm curious to find out if there is a better way of doing it than that. I mean, if there is, why wouldn't they be doing it??? Wildlife conservation and management has been around since the late 1800s and early 1900s... I can't believe that after 100 years of trial and error, 100 years of research, we'd be using a flawed method instead of something better.

 

[Milo]

they have not been counting deer that long here in ohio...maybe 40 years or so...and you can tell in the beginning they struggled( new concept and don't blame them) as they closed some seasons by killing too many

 

[JD Boyd]

Something that keeps going through my mind is if they really wanted the deer herd cut down to a certain # they could do it themselves...

 

[brock ratcliff]

Mike, another thing to consider; the harvest drop in the 90's occured with essentially the same number of days in the field. Tonk added three weekend days to shotgun season from one year to the next which showed a boost in harvest. Additionally, muzzleloaders are vastly superior to what they were in 95- deer used to be relatively safe after the six day shotgun season.

What I'm hoping to convey is what we discussed earlier, the extra shotgun, and high-power rifle season, inflate the numbers (percent of success) well over what it would have been if we were still working with a 6 day shotgun season.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Something that keeps going through my mind is if they really wanted the deer herd cut down to a certain # they could do it themselves...

How would they know...they don't know whats still alive.

 

[jagermeister]

they have not been counting deer that long here in ohio...maybe 40 years or so...and you can tell in the beginning they struggled( new concept and don't blame them) as they closed some seasons by killing too many

I realize this. I wasn't specifically talking about deer management.... The concept of wildlife conservation has been around that long, which is where the principles of herd estimation are derived. Hell, guys were in Alaska estimating caribou populations in the 20's and 30's... the same principles apply to whitetails. And even if it was only 40 years of research behind all this, you would think after 40 years we'd have it figured out. We can put wifi internet on phones and produce nanochips... technological advances in very short time periods... but yet we can't figure out how to estimate a deer population in 40 years??? C'monnnn.

 

[mrex]

And basing the estimated herd size on harvest numbers is the flaw. As has been pointed out a dozen times, if there are ten, you can kill four. If there are only 6, you can still kill four. Seriously, all I'm hoping for is a closer look. They are nearly GONE in areas....huge areas, I'm not referring to just a hundred acre parcel.

Tonk has told me repeatedly that he is not in favor of publishing a statewide number.

Like I told you last night, the state of California can't tell us how many people live inside their border. How in the hell do you accurately census a statewide deer population? It's a swag at best. The kill "usually" mirrors the population...on average

As Phil pointed out, the take away here is that "the guy" in the DOW is admitting that the deer population is down. And I don't doubt for a second that it's way down in some areas.

I have said for years that the state needs to micro manage on a county by county basis. Indiana does it.

...and he agrees that in areas with limited habitat, like most of Fayette Co, that coyotes will make it harder for #'s to rebound as quickly as they once did.

 

[mrex]

Something that keeps going through my mind is if they really wanted the deer herd cut down to a certain # they could do it themselves...

...and if it was truly a conspiracy, why wouldn't they just lie about the harvest numbers and make us all think the deer are just someplace else?

 

[mrex]

Mike, another thing to consider; the harvest drop in the 90's occured with essentially the same number of days in the field. Tonk added three weekend days to shotgun season from one year to the next which showed a boost in harvest. Additionally, muzzleloaders are vastly superior to what they were in 95- deer used to be relatively safe after the six day shotgun season.

What I'm hoping to convey is what we discussed earlier, the extra shotgun, and high-power rifle season, inflate the numbers (percent of success) well over what it would have been if we were still working with a 6 day shotgun season.

I totally agree...do away with the bonus gun weekend and put the "primitive" back in our primitive weapons season. Let these new front end loaded single shot high powered riffles be used during the annual gun week.

 

[brock ratcliff]

Tonk has told me repeatedly that he is not in favor of publishing a statewide number.

Like I told you last night, the state of California can't tell us how many people live inside their border. How in the hell do you accurately census a statewide deer population? It's a swag at best. The kill "usually" mirrors the population...on average

As Phil pointed out, the take away here is that "the guy" in the DOW is admitting that the deer population is down. And I don't doubt for a second that it's way down in some areas.

I have said for years that the state needs to micro manage on a county by county basis. Indiana does it.

...and he agrees that in areas with limited habitat, like most of Fayette Co, that coyotes will make it harder for #'s to rebound as quickly as they once did.

Agreed and understood. The question is then, since we all know there is no way of knowing how many deer there really are in the State, how do we know when we have reached the goal? What is the goal? Is it to cut deer numbers to the point of harvesting 125,000 with four months of archery, 9 days of shotgun, and a week with inlines? Is the goal to killing them down to where a guy HAS to hunt daily for four months to kill a single deer?

 

[mrex]

I realize this. I wasn't specifically talking about deer management.... The concept of wildlife conservation has been around that long, which is where the principles of herd estimation are derived. Hell, guys were in Alaska estimating caribou populations in the 20's and 30's... the same principles apply to whitetails. And even if it was only 40 years of research behind all this, you would think after 40 years we'd have it figured out. We can put wifi internet on phones and produce nanochips... technological advances in very short time periods... but yet we can't figure out how to estimate a deer population in 40 years??? C'monnnn.

I just sold a 2,000 word story to NAW about what deer smell and how they smell. You'd be amazed at how little is known about their olfactory senses. From a scientific perspective, deer don't get near the attention or research as you might think.

 

[mrex]

Agreed and understood. The question is then, since we all know there is no way of knowing how many deer there really are in the State, how do we know when we have reached the goal? What is the goal? Is it to cut deer numbers to the point of harvesting 125,000 with four months of archery, 9 days of shotgun, and a week with inlines? Is the goal to killing them down to where a guy HAS to hunt daily for four months to kill a single deer?

The goal is to make ALL Ohioans happy...and that's never going to happen.

I totally understand the hunters point of view and it is true, we hunters keep the lights on at Fountain Square. Unfortunately, the DOW is charged with appeasing everyone...and we aint everyone. Again, IMO, the answer to a lot of this is reducing the number of "opening days" and micro management.

 

[Milo]

Mike how can we communicate BETTER with ODNR? in an ideal world every county would have a sportsmans group/club but the politics in those microgroups is often more complex than the presidential candidates.. maybe some volunteers within each county? there are ALOT of people running and tracking deer cams now. I would think that the larger look into those numbers may help shed some light on things. I love the concept of micro management but implementing such a task with only 1 game warden per county would be well outside the means of the GW job scope and we would likely need to double the force to even do it justice. I am going to look up what indiana does and how they are successful with it.

 

[brock ratcliff]

I realize this. I wasn't specifically talking about deer management.... The concept of wildlife conservation has been around that long, which is where the principles of herd estimation are derived. Hell, guys were in Alaska estimating caribou populations in the 20's and 30's... the same principles apply to whitetails. And even if it was only 40 years of research behind all this, you would think after 40 years we'd have it figured out. We can put wifi internet on phones and produce nanochips... technological advances in very short time periods... but yet we can't figure out how to estimate a deer population in 40 years??? C'monnnn.

Caribou populations would be relatively easy to estimate due to annual migration. I can't tell you precisely how many deer are in a 10 acre woodlot. Their movements are hidden, and their reclusive lifestyle makes them not only hard to hunt, but hard to count.

Heck, now that they are willing to admit they don't have any idea how many are in the state, maybe they will be willing to consider they may have allowed/encouraged over harvest... I kinda doubt that will happen.

 

[rgecko23]

Maybe look into infrared fly overs in the counties?

 

[mrex]

Mike how can we communicate BETTER with ODNR? in an ideal world every county would have a sportsmans group/club but the politics in those microgroups is often more complex than the presidential candidates.. maybe some volunteers within each county? there are ALOT of people running and tracking deer cams now. I would think that the larger look into those numbers may help shed some light on things. I love the concept of micro management but implementing such a task with only 1 game warden per county would be well outside the means of the GW job scope and we would likely need to double the force to even do it justice. I am going to look up what indiana does and how they are successful with it.

Indiana issues bonus doe tags on a per county basis. I think that's a lot better than lumping the entire state into 3 zones.

 

[huntn2]

Indiana issues bonus doe tags on a per county basis. I think that's a lot better than lumping the entire state into 3 zones.

PA and NY are similar...you may not be eligible for a doe tag in a given year for a particular wildlife management unit. Other areas/years you may be able to go into a lottery where you may or may not get a permit. Some places you may be guarenteed one or more tags.

I have said all along I truly believe one big step is to move towards a more micro managed approach. Offer doe permits by county in order to understand how many hunters/permits are intended to be used by country relative to the harvest. This would allow Mike and team to have much more quantifiable information/metrics that can be used to make decisions with respect to managing the deer herd.

 

[jagermeister]

Caribou populations would be relatively easy to estimate due to annual migration. I can't tell you precisely how many deer are in a 10 acre woodlot. Their movements are hidden, and their reclusive lifestyle makes them not only hard to hunt, but hard to count.

Heck, now that they are willing to admit they don't have any idea how many are in the state, maybe they will be willing to consider they may have allowed/encouraged over harvest... I kinda doubt that will happen.

I know, Brock... Carribou to whitetails is apples to oranges. All I was implying was that the concept of conservation and herd estimation is nothing new.

Management on a county by county basis would be ideal. I just don't know how they would/could make it happen. That would put one hell of a demand on already-limited resources.