Fracknation

[Jackalope]

I'm not blindly following anything here. I have FAR more first hand experience with this than you do. What you know came from searching the internet I presume. What I know comes from growing up in the industry; working in an area that has had active fracking at much shallower depths for the past 20+ years; and from being privy to the science behind fracking on a first hand basis and knowing what we use to frack our wells. If what we were doing at 10K feet was going to ruin the drinking water in short order, then the past 20+ years of injecting water at 3K should have ruined every well in Wetzel and Tyler Counties already. Hell, we have been waterflooding in those areas for the same amount of time injecting hundreds of barrels a day in the ground in our secondary recovery efforts and yet even that practice has not ruined the local water sources. If that is not going to do it, then a 30 day frack at 3 times the depth isn't going to either. At least not in the immediate or foreseeable future...

Sorry, I wasn't aware working for an oil company made you an expert in geochemistry or the Lithosphere and hydrosphere .. Nor am I.. But the fact is, we only get to screw it up once. No second chances.. No "oops sorry". We are talking about the drinking water of million upon millions of people. To include future generations way way way down the line. We're talking about one of the most key components of water filtration on earth. Which is THE earth.. While you say the problem hasn't ruined local water sources in the "immediate or foreseeable future" The fact is, the science isn't there to support we aren't going to in the future, be it "Immediate" or "Foreseeable" doesn't matter.. Like I said earlier, and I'm not sure why this is hard to understand... "The lack of proof that it causes problems does not mean it should be considered acceptable". Things like Asbestos, lead paint, toxic waste dumps, etc and other self induced contamination of epic proportions, we can clean it up in hindsight as it's on the surface. There is no "grab a mop" if we contaminate drinking water or contaminate the earths natural filtration process. And until such time as science can unequivocally prove that it's safe and without risk we shouldn't be using chemicals.

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

Sorry, I wasn't aware working for an oil company made you an expert in geochemistry or the Lithosphere and hydrosphere .. Nor am I.. But the fact is, we only get to screw it up once. No second chances.. No "oops sorry". We are talking about the drinking water of million upon millions of people. To include future generations way way way down the line. We're talking about one of the most key components of water filtration on earth. Which is THE earth.. While you say the problem hasn't ruined local water sources in the "immediate or foreseeable future" The fact is, the science isn't there to support we aren't going to in the future, be it "Immediate" or "Foreseeable" doesn't matter.. Like I said earlier, and I'm not sure why this is hard to understand... "The lack of proof that it causes problems does not mean it should be considered acceptable". Things like Asbestos, lead paint, toxic waste dumps, etc and other self induced contamination of epic proportions, we can clean it up in hindsight as it's on the surface. There is no "grab a mop" if we contaminate drinking water or contaminate the earths natural filtration process. And until such time as science can unequivocally prove that it's safe and without risk we shouldn't be using chemicals.

We can only screw up once...that's why fracking companies are now recycling coal mine water that is tainted with acid in their frac jobs...and then they clean it up and use it over and over again.

Don't worry, 600 foot turbines coming towards a hunting spot near yours.

 

[bowhunter1023]

I'm not saying I'm an expert, far from it in fact. However to imply I'm a blind sheep just doing/repeating what I'm told is nonsense. I am simply speaking from my experience and knowledge base which IMO, involves far more first hand personal experience than what you have. Our secondary recovery efforts are a perfect example of how injected water can stay put and I draw many of my opinions on fracking from my knowledge of these operations.

I hear what you are saying in regards to there being no hard truth answers right now. As I said in the beginning, I know better to argue with you because I know how it goes and this debate is no different. I've said what I have to say on the matter and the readers can decide for themselves whether I'm full of shit or whether I may actually know a little something about this whole fracking thing...

 

[Jackalope]

We can only screw up once...that's why fracking companies are now recycling coal mine water that is tainted with acid in their frac jobs...and then they clean it up and use it over and over again.

Don't worry, 600 foot turbines coming towards a hunting spot near yours.

Thanks for proving my point. We shouldn't be doing anything today that we don't have solid scientific evidence won't cause problems later. It only takes a small amount of chemicals to pollute billions of gallons of drinking water.

 

[Lundy]

The one potential bad thing I have heard about fracking is the use of the water in them. I know they can reuse the water "x" number of times but its still a lot of water and there is only so much water we have.

I just trained some contractors a few weeks ago in Mannington WV on welding techniques for a special piping that is being used in a new facility being built by Consul Energy. This plant takes underground mine water and treats it for use in well fracking. This water previously was treated and sent down a stream somewhere.

After it is used in the fracking process it is hauled to a facility to clean and the water and reuse it for more fracking. The solids are disposed of at specific waste facilities. There are a bunch of these water reclamation facilities being built all over PA, WV and Ohio.

This industry is very well regulated and watched VERY closely. It is a very good thing for our energy needs and our economy. Fracking has been going on since the 40's

 

[bowhunter1023]

I just trained some contractors a few weeks ago in Mannington WV on welding techniques for a special piping that is being used in a new facility being built by Consul Energy. This plant takes underground mine water and treats it for use in well fracking. This water previously was treated and sent down a stream somewhere.

After it is used in the fracking process it is hauled to a facility to clean and the water and reuse it for more fracking. The solids are disposed of at specific waste facilities. There are a bunch of these water reclamation facilities being built all over PA, WV and Ohio.

This industry is very well regulated and watched VERY closely. It is a very good thing for our energy needs and our economy. Anyone that says otherwise is uninformed or has an agenda.

:smiley_clap:

Gotta love Mannington! Lots to do there! lmao

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

Thanks for proving my point. We shouldn't be doing anything today that we don't have solid scientific evidence won't cause problems later. It only takes a small amount of chemicals to pollute billions of gallons of drinking water.

What the fuck, Secretary Chu?? Are you going to live in your mud hut and walk everywhere?!

 

[Lundy]

:smiley_clap:

Gotta love Mannington! Lots to do there! lmao

If you like the CVS you are in for a big time.

I had to stay in Morgantown and drive over to the new plant on Dent's Run Road.

 

[Jackalope]

What the fuck, Secretary Chu?? Are you going to live in your mud hut and walk everywhere?!

As I said earlier. Roll on asbestos man. Roll on. It's the same mentality that got us in that problem. Except we're talking about underground and our water supply.

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

As I said earlier. Roll on asbestos man. Roll on. It's the same mentality that got us in that problem. Except we're talking about underground and our water supply.

I understand what you're saying, but if you're not going to draw a line, you're back to the stone age.

I think it's pretty funny you think Jesse is a dumb sheep. How's Cheshire, Ohio doing these days? Man if you think fracking is bad...take a look in the mirror at those fuggin coal plants!

 

[Ohiosam]

Joe you used the example of diamonds moving up but the most widely accepted theory of the origins of oil, gas, and coal is that they are from decomposed organic material. So the peterolium products that these wells are tapping into started at the surface and now are 8000 plus feet deep. The normal tendency is for things to get deeper over time not shallower.

 

[Jackalope]

I understand what you're saying, but if you're not going to draw a line, you're back to the stone age.

I think it's pretty funny you think Jesse is a dumb sheep. How's Cheshire, Ohio doing these days? Man if you think fracking is bad...take a look in the mirror at those fuggin coal plants!

Listen you little smart ass, never once have I said I condone or agree with all the practices of the coal industry. So attempt to draw a correlation if you want. I simply do it work got them. I've also never once said anyone was wrong working for the oil and gas industry. Nor did i say he was a dumb sheep. I said. Not even scientists understand the earths crust well enough to say its not going To cause an issue. Dont put words in my mouth. And attempt to discredit a point with a lame ass tactic.

My point has been all along that we should not be injecting chemicals underground without understanding the full impacts to include hundreds of years from now. The earths groundwater is nothing to leave to chance or hindsight like we did with asbestos or toxic waste dumps.

Cheshire is a prime example of exactly what I am talking about. It was found out in hindsight that there was a problem luckily it was easy enough to fix because the company purchase the entire fucking town and cleaned it up. They also invested billions of dollars scrubbers so that it didn't happen in the future. But we humans do not get that luxury when were talking about groundwater supply and filtration systems under the earth

 

[bowhunter1023]

So then what should we be doing to provide for our reliance on fossil fuels?

 

[Jackalope]

So then what should we be doing to provide for our reliance on fossil fuels?

Figure out how to frack wells with solutions that even if they contaminate groundwater can be broken down naturally or pose no harm in consumption. Drill in areas of uninhabitable land. Alaska for instance. Establish a bond for each well to research, investigate, and clean up any environmental impacts that may be found in the future. Finish projects such as the keystone pipeline where we can move natural resources from areas that have very little impact the more populated areas. This way if even in hindsight we completely nuke the shit out of the place it's not going to matter. Lol. Look I have absolutely no problem with dirty or risky mining practices. And I could give two shits about some polar bears. As long as its in an area where the possibility for human impact is negated.

And a more radical thought would be we should already own half of the Kuwait oil fields for payment after we saved their ass from the invasion of Saddam back in 91. We should all so have a percentage of oilfields in Iraq for having to get rid of the fucker. Yet we fought a couple wars that put us trillions of dollars in debt and have absolutely not shit to show for it. The rest of the world has already accused us of invading Iraq for their oil supplies, if we're going to get blamed for it we might as well do it. Lol.

 

[jagermeister]

What's really interesting is how the topic of hydraulic fracturing is so controversial... so heated... No one wants to risk polluting our groundwater in order to provide fuel. Yet you hardly hear anything about the water supplies we are polluting every day with hormones, antibiotics, and other medications. The city of Cleveland discharges its "treated" wastewater right into Lake Erie... only to pump it right back in to their drinking fountains. Problem is, most treatment processes don't remove the residual compounds related to prescription drugs and other chemicals. We're polluting that water right on the surface... DAILY...

 

[Jackalope]

What's really interesting is how the topic of hydraulic fracturing is so controversial... so heated... No one wants to risk polluting our groundwater in order to provide fuel. Yet you hardly hear anything about the water supplies we are polluting every day with hormones, antibiotics, and other medications. The city of Cleveland discharges its "treated" wastewater right into Lake Erie... only to pump it right back in to their drinking fountains. Problem is, most treatment processes don't remove the residual compounds related to prescription drugs and other chemicals. We're polluting that water right on the surface... DAILY...

Agreed, the amount of prescription medications found in drinking water is pretty high. And I'm not condoning it in any way, but there is a slight difference, they are in very minute amounts and designed for human consumption. Where as it only takes a single gallon of diesel to make a million gallons of water considered unfit for human consumption. Between 2005-2009, 12 of 14 companies that used fracking injected a reported 32 million gallons of diesel fuel during their fracking procedures. That's not speculation. They admitted it.. This led to diesel being forbidden under the safe water drinking act. Which is reportedly the only chemical covered under the act in regards to fracking. So lets look at it this way... This shows me a pattern.. A pattern that says "We're going to do what we want as long as it's not illegal, if you don't like it then pass a law. In the meantime we'll keep pumping." To me that's unacceptable. That's not something some crazy fractivist thought of. It's not even a "what if" speculation. It happened and the companies admitted it. Now. Let me ask you. Why weren't they made to clean it up like BP was in the gulf.. Simple, we do not posses the technology to clean fracked wells thousands of feet below the surface. This is not a good recipe and we're gambling with the most important aspect of human survival.. Drinking water and the earths ability to clean it.

 

[Ohiosam]

What is the real difference between relatively small amount diesel fuel being pushed down the hole and the exponentially larger amount of crude petroleum products that are already in the the ground?

 

[Jackalope]

What is the real difference between relatively small amount diesel fuel being pushed down the hole and the exponentially larger amount of crude petroleum products that are already in the the ground?

Lets first put "relatively small" in to perspective first... 32 million gallons of diesel fuel is enough to make 32 trillion gallons of water unfit for consumption.. There is only an estimated 127 trillion gallons in all of lake Erie. Meaning in 4 short years they pumped enough diesel in the ground to make 1/4 of lake Erie unfit for human consumption if it were dumped offshore, which is enough to supply the entire US at current water consumption for the next 8 months. It's no small amount.

Now compared to the amount that's already there it's small in comparison. For the most part it's in isolated and segregated layers. However we are purposefully expanding cracks and fracturing said layers to increase production. We are also drilling passage ways down to, and horizontally, in said layers. None of this is really a concern however.. That's not really the problem.. The most disturbing is we have been shown that it can cause seismic activity. Now that is some serious mumbo jumbo. That has the potential to open faults and rifs whereby water can be contaminated in the future. The most disturbing fact is we don't completely understand the impact it has on seismic activity or if it allows such activity to expand existing fractures, rifs, and faults causing contamination where there might not have been if the structure wasn't compromised.

 

[bowhunter1023]

http://marcellusdrilling.com/2012/03/alternative-fracking-method-may-soon-debut-in-new-york/

Damned dirty apes!

Most of the Tioaga County acerage is now Shell's, but was with our company from 2001 to 2011.

 

[Ohiosam]

If they don't like a little diesel fuel added to the fracking fluids they surely won't like LPG.