Is Higher Education a Scam?

[huntn2]

But are they going to be able to make that 40K without that degree, or will it be more like 25-30k when they are working part time or in a factory making 10-13 bucks an hour? If that's the case wouldn't the student loan pay for itself within the first 5-7 years and then anything after that be toward the good?

Drake, you are correct in that if they were only bringing in $25k-$30k they are still screwed in my example...

They would be in the red by about $300 a month assuming the same expenses (less the student loan payment). But that is why I didn't say they shouldn't necessarily have a degree. I said "something must change" and referenced stucturing degree programs so that someone can complete them in 2-3 years and therefore nock off up to half the student loan debt.

 

[DJK Frank 16]

huntn2, this sentence right here tells it all: I tell people all the time you really have to know what you want to do before going to a school.

So many people get the advice "You have to go to college" shoved down their throats that they end up going and having no idea what they want to do. So they end up going, dropping out, and having a ton of unjustified debt to pay on.

But I think the guys that have things planned out, don't overspend and go to a college above their means, and end up with a career in their field of study have a different outlook.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't watched the video, but I can agree that there are some levels of corruption, just like any big business or program that the gov't dips there fingers in. Lunch hour is at 11, I hope to get at least the majority of the video in.


Another sentence out of your reply "You could easily restructure college programs to enable someone to get out in 2-3 years.".

This is something else that I researched and swayed my decision to attend the college that I did. 75-80% of the classes that I took were in my degree program. Very minimal general ed classes. No religion, no philosophy. One Pysch, one sociology, a few English and math, and that's about it for gen ed's.

I was able to complete 2 - 2 year degrees in 3 yrs and one quarter.

 

[DJK Frank 16]

Drake, you are correct in that if they were only bringing in $25k-$30k they are still screwed in my example...

They would be in the red by about $300 a month assuming the same expenses (less the student loan payment). But that is why I didn't say they shouldn't necessarily have a degree. I said "something must change" and referenced stucturing degree programs so that someone can complete them in 2-3 years and therefore nock off up to half the student loan debt.

100% agreed! It makes me almost sick when someone leaves a school like the one right down the road from me, that as of a couple years ago tuition averaged 27k a year. I almost fell over backward when they told me that. I never even toured the campus after they said the tuition cost. I bet there are people that leave an institution like that, never use their degree, and pay on that student loan debt until they die.

 

[Jackalope]

My wife keeps getting on me about the investment programs designed for your kids college. I tell her "I didn't get any help, you didn't get any help, let them figure it out on their own. It will build character." In all honesty though, she is probably right. We should be doing something. I am thinking of going belly up just before they go to school so they can get a free ride, but then I think we already have a thread something like that around here somewhere?

The video talks about the "college bubble" and compares it to the housing bubble. How people are being given100,000+ in student load debts, when these same people wouldn't qualify for a used car loan..

It also talks about taking the 150,000 your going to spend on your kids college and buying them a house. A giant relief on 30+ years of their life and in the end you saved them 300,000... Or you saved them 150,000 in rent over 30 years where they would have not a single physical asset to show for it.

It would free up their budget, Not put them in debt for housing, and they would always have a place to live if they pay the taxes... Then let them work and pay for their own degree with the money they save not having to pay rent or a mortgage.

 

[Ohiosam]

My wife keeps getting on me about the investment programs designed for your kids college. I tell her "I didn't get any help, you didn't get any help, let them figure it out on their own. It will build character." In all honesty though, she is probably right. We should be doing something. I am thinking of going belly up just before they go to school so they can get a free ride, but then I think we already have a thread something like that around here somewhere?

Any money the kids have in their names can hurt them on receiving grants and scholarships. It's a double edge sword to save for college.

 

[hickslawns]

While this isn't necessarily college related, it sorta pertains. I feel any parent should do this as a benefit for their children, and God forbid as a necessity should it be needed prior to college. We started a whole life insurance policy for our kids when they were born. Actually when 30days old because that was the soonest allowed. Costs us $25/month I believe. Locked in at this price with no premium increases. Best thing any parent can do. Our thoughts were basically to not let the kids know about it. Not use it for college, but to give it to them either when they graduate college or when they get married or when they buy a home. Hopefully they choose to not cash it in and continue paying the monthly premium as this is as cheap as they will ever get the policy and by this time it will have grown to the point where it is starting to grow pretty decently. I believe they can be drawn upon for first home purchase, financial hardship, or college without penalties. Hand it to them prior to college and I don't think most kids are old enough (maybe mature enough better fits) to handle it. This is the only future planning specifically for our kids that we have done.

Now personally, I feel the best education our kids can get are the examples we set for them. Watching a self employed father in his successes and failures, a mother that went back to school later in life, and Aunts/Uncles with different success/failure stories is the best education they will receive. How well they absorb it and apply it will vary with each child I am sure. My daughter has aspirations like most little girls of being a singer/songwriter/actress with a backup plan as an author/illustrator for children's books. I am guessing a common desire for 9yr olds. Honestly, with what I have seen I could see her being a Vet/Doctor/or engineer. Time will tell. My son will turn 7 this week and has shown interest in Firemen, Police Officers, and taking over Daddy's business. Also fairly common in 7yr old boys. He also wants to do backflips on his motorcycle. lol I could honestly see any of these happening as well. Still early to tell, but I am supporting any of these options for him. I truly think he will have an upper hand in any of these professions given my background and his exposure to them. If he wanted to be self employed he could probably make more than if he goes to college. My take on the economy and future of our country is the service sector and medical is where a vast majority of jobs will be in 10-15yrs when they are entering their adult lives. We will still help them to excel in their educations, but nurturing an open mind and multiple skill sets prior to their college days will help them more than many of their classmates in my opinion. We will certainly encourage college, but I will not discourage public service (police/fire/etc) nor self employment. I think the best thing we can do for them is make them work and not hand them everything. This is going to be our biggest hurdle as parents as neither Erin nor myself grew up with a lot of "extras" as children. It is hard not to spoil them a little. As long as we don't spoil their spirit or drive in whatever desired field they choose, i think they will be okay. If they want to go the 4-5-6yrs of college route, I pray the Lord gives us the guidance to help them earn scholarships. lol

 

[Buckmaster]

I'm on the same path as Phil. When my kids (2) were born I bought them whole life insurance policies. I paid them in full with a one time payment. They will be guaranteed life insurance for the rest of their lives and be able to purchase additional insurance when they are 21 years old despite any health issues. Also following birth I opened a 529 college savings plan for each child. I place a monthly contribution of $ 100.00 into their accounts. When they are 18 years old I will have contributed for 216 months or $ 21,600 each. I placed it into aggressive type funds to hopefully earn the best return possible. I also encourage my kids to forfeit any birthday money, gift money, etc. as their "saving for college" funds. Most of that gets deposited into their 529 plans with a little fun money left over for the kids to blow. That's the best I can do as a parent living in today's recession. I hope it presents my kids with at least an opportunity for higher education. They will have to furnish or earn the rest. As they say....you can take a loan for education but you can't take a loan for retirements. Best of luck guys in your savings plans.

 

[rgecko23]

How old are they? College has gone up 5% per year for 40 years and isn't expected to stop. The average is 24,000 right now. So if they are 8 when they are 18 the average will cost you 39,182 per year or 156,328 for an average 4 year degree.

My son is 2 and my daughter is 5.......I better get a 3rd job lol

 

[DJK Frank 16]

I couldn't agree more, the majority of what has shaped m y life personally to this point, has been the responsibilities I was given at a young age. I was shoveling dog shit and bathing beagles at age 5 or 6. At age 7 or 8 I was on a Wheel Horse tractor mowing the grass (with a concrete block attached to the seat to make the minimum weight requirement). I learned hard work/respect/and responsibility at a young age.

Those qualities that were instilled in me early and I feel they have been the most contributing factor to my success thus far in life. I thank my parents every day for making me do that stuff that I didn't want to do. Clean my room, water the dogs, mow the yard, wash the car. To this day when asked in interviews what makes me the best candidate for the job, that is what I tell.

I watched the video......

The first and foremost fact that I picked up was the book scam. I can remember my last quarter of college, I paid 750 dollars for books. After the quarter was over, I went back to the book store and they offered me 40 bucks for all of them. I was furious. I've seen that sham happen first hand!

Here is why I don't think this applies to everyone...

One argument in the video is "loss of income". That doesn't apply to me as I worked 40 hour a week "part-time" 2nd shift job the whole time I was in college. My 2nd argument is the fact that I don't think I spent wasted time in college as the majority of my classes were actual degree specific, hands on classes, not general ed BS that is a waste of time and money.

I do agree however for those that don't work through college and that leave school with over 100K in student loans, they are being setup for failure. I made 10-15K a year working through college, only borrowed an average of 10K a year in student loans, and got my job a quarter before I graduated college. For me college made lots of sense and I do not regret anything about it.

I do disagree with how college is shoved down everyone's throat. My brother for instance, was told by school teachers,friends, and family members that if he wanted to be successful that he had to go to college. He hated school, did not like college, and quit after the first quarter. He now has 3K in student loans that did him zero good. I can only think about what shape he would be in if he waited a few more quarters, even a few years before deciding that college was not what he wanted to do.

I see no quick fix to the problems outlined in the video, except the fact that the government needs to get their hands out of the education sector and let the lending be put back on the banks.

 

[bowhunter1023]

I doubt I'll watch the video, but I largely agree that it is a scam. Here are my thoughts...

Tracie and I are both college "educated". I did my 4 at OU and she put in 5 at Kent State. I left with $12K in debt and she left with $40K in debt. We pay $475 a month in student loan payments and will do so for a long time. I needed 192 hours to graduate from OU and had exactly 192 hours when I graduated. They tried with all their mite to make it a 5-year journey. My total major credits were 42 hours; the rest was "well rounded" bullshit that my dad/I was paying $10K+ a year to endure. Tracie was in a "4-year program" that no one finished in that time frame. KSU has made a killing off of piss poor management of their programs so they could basically force people into a 5th year. She busted her ass to graduate Magna Cum Laude from the best nursing school in Ohio and she uses her education daily; her career is not something you just coast through or learn from on the job training. (She is a BS, RN which is why it took 5 years. The real scam is that she doesn't make any more than someone who goes to the local community college and gets a 2 year RN degree.) My education on the other hand, was largely a joke. I benefited more from having four years to grow up, develop my communication skills, and figure out a direction in life. I use 5% or less of my actual book learning IMO. Would I need that BA in Marketing to be a landman? No. Did that piece of paper make it "easier" for me to find a solid career? Absolutely. Do I think a piece of paper should take precedent over experience? Very rarely and depends on the job. Just because someone graduates from college, it does not entitle them to anything. I hate it when people think they are the shit because they have a degree and that it should entitle them to something. I figure that is a whole different argument though...

With that being said, we're in a our late 20's making close to six figures and it is highly unlikely that we would be where we are today without those two pieces of paper. I think we overpaid for them, but I view it as a necessary evil in today's society. I wouldn't trade the experience for the world. The system is a scam, but it shouldn't take away from the accomplishment of doing your time and "earning" your degree. I'm proud to be an OU alumni and that will never change regardless of how corrupt the system may be...

 

[cotty16]

Yea, guidance counselors are dumbasses, I'm pretty sure you can manage


KIDDING!

That's why I'd be great! :smiley_champ:

 

[finelyshedded]

Some very good stories/points and discussion on here. IMO, college tuition is over inflated for the quality of jobs out there today. In a nutshell, the majority of graduates will be paying off loans far into careers instead of saving and stimulating a lousy economy that definitely needs a shot in the arm. I've got two daughters in their early teens and I'm dreading their future endeavors in the higher education discussion. Living with us while going to school close to home looks to be our best option on the table so far but we'll see.

 

[Buckmaster]

In terms of my education I have a Bachelor of Administration with a Marketing major and Psychology minor. I went to Kent State, staying at home and communting to college. I worked 30-45 hours per week taking night school classes. It took me six years to get my degree. I was too burnt out after six years to pursue a Masters. I tried a semester of Master's work then dropped out. I graduated with no student debt as I paid for every other semeter out of my own pocket. My father initally contributed $ 15,000 into my savings account for educational use which I'd dip into for tuition for some semesters. I think he used his personal credit line to finance me and my sister's college tuition.
My piece of paper contributes to "open opportunity" and that's all. It's all about "who you know" to land that job of lifetime. I use about 5% of my education here at work.

 

[Jackalope]

In terms of my education I have a Bachelor of Administration with a Marketing major and Psychology minor. I went to Kent State, staying at home and communting to college. I worked 30-45 hours per week taking night school classes. It took me six years to get my degree. I was too burnt out after six years to pursue a Masters. I tried a semester of Master's work then dropped out. I graduated with no student debt as I paid for every other semeter out of my own pocket. My father initally contributed $ 15,000 into my savings account for educational use which I'd dip into for tuition for some semesters. I think he used his personal credit line to finance me and my sister's college tuition.
My piece of paper contributes to "open opportunity" and that's all. It's all about "who you know" to land that job of lifetime. I use about 5% of my education here at work.

Now imagine if the end result was the same, except you had 50,000-150,000 in student loan debt.. :smiley_confused_vra I think what you did should be a prime example of how it should be.. Hard work.. The sad truth is, you are the vast minority. Most students today are making some very unwise financial decisions for not a very good return.

 

[Ohiosam]

Most students today are making some very unwise financial decisions for not a very good return.

And the educational industrial complex encourages poor financial decision making. You would not believe the grief my oldest got from HS teachers about going to YSU. He got through it and ended up with more money in the bank then when he started. He's going to grad school in the fall and will be paid to do research that will cover his living expenses and school will be free.

 

[DJK Frank 16]

Now imagine if the end result was the same, except you had 50,000-150,000 in student loan debt.. :smiley_confused_vra I think what you did should be a prime example of how it should be.. Hard work.. The sad truth is, you are the vast minority. Most students today are making some very unwise financial decisions for not a very good return.

I couldn't imagine having that much, I bitch enough about the payment I have now.

 

[DJK Frank 16]

And the educational industrial complex encourages poor financial decision making. You would not believe the grief my oldest got from HS teachers about going to YSU. He got through it and ended up with more money in the bank then when he started. He's going to grad school in the fall and will be paid to do research that will cover his living expenses and school will be free.

Sounds like a pretty good deal right there Sam.

 

[Ohiosam]

Yes it is.

 

[Buckmaster]

I have friends that have incurred student loans in excess of $ 50,000+. I never asked how much their monthly payment was but I would imagine its spread over 15 years.

I'm fearful of the day I need to send my kids off to higher education. I started financing them at birth and it still won't be enough. I would say a $ 500.00 per month contribution for 18 years should cover 100% of education in 2026. I did the math once but this guy (me) must have the means to live life first. I consider myself fortunate and better off than most. There are times to spend money (wisely) and times to be frugal (most of the time).

 

[Jackalope]

And the educational industrial complex encourages poor financial decision making. You would not believe the grief my oldest got from HS teachers about going to YSU. He got through it and ended up with more money in the bank then when he started. He's going to grad school in the fall and will be paid to do research that will cover his living expenses and school will be free.

You should really watch the video man... It goes over that point also. I've seen you make two very well stated points that were in the video.

That's similar to what my wife / ex wife.. err.. It's complicated... Anyway, that's what she's doing now.. Her masters is paid for through her assistance on research, and she's making enough on top of that to live on her own.. Rent, food,etc etc. And even banking some back. Her research is in biomedical engineering and the program is ranked number 1 in the nation.

Speaking of return on investment, maybe i should keep her. :smiley_chinrub: