The overall quality of my deer hunting experience by every metric is what I'm thinking about while pondering all of this. I know what it was like in the deer woods when there were no crossbows, no corn piles, no pop-up blinds and no trail cameras. It is a very different and diminished experience today compared to when I started 40 years ago. I make adjustments and go on hunting the way I always have, or something close to it in my dotage, lol.
The Future of Hunting in Ohio
- Thread starter bowhunter1023
- Start date
This.
@at1010, our mental masturbation here is founded on your personal opinion of a utopian Ohio whitetail herd and hunting experience. Given the complexity of the stakeholder base at the state level, there will never be a unanimously adopted, definitive problem statement made. Like Jamie, I'm approaching this from my vision of a perfect state.
at1010
*Supporting Member*
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yes. This in and of itself makes it really difficult. Just by the sake of us being on this site - probably puts us in the far minority of our consideration to the species we pursue.
I do think a bait ban would do wonders for the overall hunter experience.
I’ll say I selfishly worry about some of the properties I hunter being far to overrun with deer if that was the case. Without guys baiting - they aren’t gunna do habitat projects and plots. The best properties would likely be like a sink - pulling in deer. Altho - maybe it still allows for less of a pull like a corn pile every 100 acres.
I think it’s a great topic and one that I’ve enjoyed discussing and reading all TOO folks comments. Great stuff!!
Ive given lots of the posts in this thread some thought, mainly because I disagree with just about all of them...but this one kinda distilled things down for me. If we aren't able to define what the problem is, then we will never be able to solve it. I understand your point about this thread being a discussion on what each of us individually would like to see change to improve our individual hunting experiences. But that's not something the WRC can implement.
Your mention of the complexity of the stakeholder base is spot on. There are hundreds of thousands of hunters in this state who have wildly differing opinions on what they want to see in terms of deer hunting. From the WRC's perspective they have to take that into account, along with politics from the legislature and executive branch. They also have to deal with the special interest groups, farmers, insurance companies, and citizens who complain about deer eating their flower gardens and totaling their SUVs.
Given the disparity of stakeholders and their goals, the best the WRC can do is manage the state's deer population with an eye towards numbers, health and age. They should (IMHO) do this with as small a regulatory footprint as possible. The individuals in a given area can then take the deer they have and manage them how they wish. If there aren't enough people around who want to deal with TDM and the inevitible BS that goes along with it, they can vote by killing whatever suits them.
I don't think the WRC should be in the business of growing big deer. They should be in the business of growing a healthy deer herd that can sustain the pressure put on it by hunters, disease, and predation. Personally, the only problem I have with hunting here in Ohio is finding private land to hunt on, either via permission or via a club. I don't want to make the endeavor any more difficult than it already is because I don't hunt for the challenge. Neither do I care about antlers. I hunt because I want to fill the freezer and I like being out in the woods. Personally, I'd be happy to have a ton of 4-6pts on my property that I can kill, vs a third as many 10-12pts that I never see. So, I'm just fine with baiting (corn, minerals, urine etc), crossbows, long seasons etc. I do think we need to cut down on OOS hunters though.
I guess I don't understand why people always want to force other people to hunt the way they do. My goals are not the same as others, and what gives me enjoyment may not move the needle for you, and vice versa. The bottom line to me is that we each need to determine what we need to enjoy hunting with a minimum of impact to others. Most of us just want to be left alone to enjoy the time allocated to us...hunting is no different.
My question is… If that’s the case, where were those hunters before the crossbow craze?
Easy. They were sitting at home, waiting for gun season to come around.
Now we just have to wonder… Would they really drop out if crossbows were banned, or have they been hooked on hunting to the point that they’d take to the woods regardless of proficiency? I’m inclined to believe that the majority would drop out. Maybe not right away, but for sure after 2-3 seasons of frustrations and let downs.
Wiley E Coyote
Active Member
This thread has been a good read that I have enjoyed but it's more like fiction then anything else. I'm sure the DNR feels they are doing a great job with our deer herd and dont care to hear our advice on what needs done! As for crossbows and corn it will never go away because way to much $$$$$ is involved. So no one needs to worry about that happening. It does get me going when I here someone say I don't have time to practice with a bow but you have time to hunt No one has time! We all have families, jobs responsibility and so on. We make the time because we love archery and hunting with a bow. When bow hunters assembled to fight for the right to have a archery season they were given a long season because bow hunting was so hard they needed 3 or 4 months. Bow hunting is very hard ! and that's exactly what bow hunters loved about bow hunting. The adventure, excitement and hard work that equals a feeling of accomplishment that gun hunting could not or ever will come close too. In those days gun hunter's looked down on and made fun of bow hunting. Bow hunting wasn't yet cool! So I'm pretty sure if the crossbow wasn't legal gun seasons would once again sound like a war zone and there would be a lot fewer big bucks hitting the ground in early November. It's the way things are and nothing stays the same that's fine I get that. It's legal and have fun I just hate hearing people say they don't have time when really they just don't want to make time because it's not that important. Just wanted to rant a little. Not a hater just a grumpy old fart. There's a lot of people hunting with bows in Ohio's deer season but there's not a lot of bow hunters
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While we're all in the cage match slinging mud. I'm gonna come off the top rope with a folding chair. 
Big buck hunters are the problem. There I said it. Horn hunters have cause more problems and damage to the tradition of hunting than any other group. They are by far responsible for the overwhelming majority of bitching and complaining and finger pointing. No other group of hunters be it crossbow guys, trad guys, bait guys, gun only guys, or meat guys bitch about other hunters like buck hunters do. Maybe just maybe the problem isn't everybody else.
I'm gonna propose a solution. Ban the harvest of bucks over 140 inches.. Matter of fact let's do them like slot fish. You can only kill bucks that score between 100-140 Do that and I guarantee the vast majority of the bitching goes away and everybody gets back to the fundamentals and enjoyment of hunting deer.
Big buck hunters are the problem. There I said it. Horn hunters have cause more problems and damage to the tradition of hunting than any other group. They are by far responsible for the overwhelming majority of bitching and complaining and finger pointing. No other group of hunters be it crossbow guys, trad guys, bait guys, gun only guys, or meat guys bitch about other hunters like buck hunters do. Maybe just maybe the problem isn't everybody else.
I'm gonna propose a solution. Ban the harvest of bucks over 140 inches.
. Matter of fact let's do them like slot fish. You can only kill bucks that score between 100-140 Do that and I guarantee the vast majority of the bitching goes away and everybody gets back to the fundamentals and enjoyment of hunting deer.
Wiley E Coyote
Active Member
I've always said deer hunting is a lot more fun than trophy hunting! And it is!
JARHEAD
Active Member
I like your thinking! That or put a 150" behind every tree and every hunter, regardless of the weapon, will be happy!!
Wiley E Coyote
Active Member
I meant to say deer hunting is more fun than horn hunting. They are all trophies
Alot of truth in that. The selfishness of deer hunting is all about the measurement of antlers, not success. Most of that podcast is about bigger antlers and not much about the deer herd.While we're all in the cage match slinging mud. I'm gonna come off the top rope with a folding chair.
Big buck hunters are the problem. There I said it. Horn hunters have cause more problems and damage to the tradition of hunting than any other group. They are by far responsible for the overwhelming majority of bitching and complaining and finger pointing. No other group of hunters be it crossbow guys, trad guys, bait guys, gun only guys, or meat guys bitch about other hunters like buck hunters do. Maybe just maybe the problem isn't everybody else.
Do that and I guarantee the vast majority of the bitching goes away and everybody gets back to the fundamentals and enjoyment of hunting deer.
at1010
*Supporting Member*
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All joking aside - that was what drove me wild about that podcast. Mike even said it at one point “where are you guys in your hunting goals compared to others”. It wasn’t about the herd health it was about “how do I kill my big bucks each year”While we're all in the cage match slinging mud. I'm gonna come off the top rope with a folding chair.
Big buck hunters are the problem. There I said it. Horn hunters have cause more problems and damage to the tradition of hunting than any other group. They are by far responsible for the overwhelming majority of bitching and complaining and finger pointing. No other group of hunters be it crossbow guys, trad guys, bait guys, gun only guys, or meat guys bitch about other hunters like buck hunters do. Maybe just maybe the problem isn't everybody else.
I'm gonna propose a solution. Ban the harvest of bucks over 140 inches.
as a group -
This convo has changed a lot in the last few years. It went from everyone worried about deer numbers to now wanting to ban things - not because of deer numbers per se - but because we want more big/mature bucks.
The fear and dare I say respect for our neighbors inherent hunting ability has deteriorated hunting and friendships.
I’m obsessed with deer but I’ll just continue to stake my claim that the ODNR isn’t going to have much help with more big bucks. We are a one buck state, as long as that never changes.
The only clear issue I see here is access. We are never going to change leasing - it’s here to stay. The only thing (in my mind) is we can support more funds going to ODNR for more land purchases throughout the state of Ohio.
Man, I feel attacked. That chair hit me square in the teeth 
Sleeping on this subject didn't help. Woke up feeling pretty angry about it honestly. The Elite want to stay elite and block everyone else out. That is the opposite message I got from mrex.
This is so far from heritage and tradition that people can't see past the destruction of it all. 20-30 years ago we would've got ran out of deer camp for any of these talks. That is the deep down hate between ole mrex and I. He tried to get sole permission on a property my family hunted back in the 90s. As a child I grew to absolutely hate him for it. After watching that podcast, I think he realizes what he has done in the past. My only hope in all this is that everyone realizes it at some point. Without a doubt he was ahead of his times with leasing and corn piles. I believe he was at the stage many here are 25 years ago. There, that is the real dirt finally in the open. Even he didn't know why I hated him so much. Now I see many here trying to take away the new deer camp. Because it has just moved from guns to crossbows. We too get to enjoy some rut activity before deer go nocturnal. Don't take that from people because you want to feel special. Do it the hard way if you want and be proud. Feel better than me, but don't take that opportunity from me and all the other crossbow hunters.
Recruitment and retention will both continue to go down if you keep down that path. Is that really what you want? If wounded animals is your complaint, let's work on mandatory bow hunters education. As a collective whole, any archer can learn from this. We can even talk about the expandable broadhead issues, but let's not ruin it for a large large group of people.
This is so far from heritage and tradition that people can't see past the destruction of it all. 20-30 years ago we would've got ran out of deer camp for any of these talks. That is the deep down hate between ole mrex and I. He tried to get sole permission on a property my family hunted back in the 90s. As a child I grew to absolutely hate him for it. After watching that podcast, I think he realizes what he has done in the past. My only hope in all this is that everyone realizes it at some point. Without a doubt he was ahead of his times with leasing and corn piles. I believe he was at the stage many here are 25 years ago. There, that is the real dirt finally in the open. Even he didn't know why I hated him so much. Now I see many here trying to take away the new deer camp. Because it has just moved from guns to crossbows. We too get to enjoy some rut activity before deer go nocturnal. Don't take that from people because you want to feel special. Do it the hard way if you want and be proud. Feel better than me, but don't take that opportunity from me and all the other crossbow hunters.
Recruitment and retention will both continue to go down if you keep down that path. Is that really what you want? If wounded animals is your complaint, let's work on mandatory bow hunters education. As a collective whole, any archer can learn from this. We can even talk about the expandable broadhead issues, but let's not ruin it for a large large group of people.
Here's another major issue that probably bothers me more about deer hunters as a group specifically more then anything else. There is no other group of hunters that exist that care more about killing their quarry then they do about the actual overall welfare of the animals that they are pursing. Deer hunters are aweful. It makes me sick when I hear them proclaim that they are putting corn out to "help the deer", same with salt blocks or any of those other dumb ass rack growing products. They dont do those things to help the deer, they do it to kill them! Those same hunters won't lift a finger to actually manage habitat such as killing invasive species, thinning timber or planting native plants, shrubs or trees. I've been involved with many groups of hunters and deer hunters are by far the bottom of the barrel generally speaking. I went to a Whitetails Unlimited banquet once and left early. It was an embarrassment. I've also been involved heavily with other hunting organizations such as Pheasants Forever, and they have all been wonderful people who truly care about the habitat and conservation. Most of the members don't even hunt pheasants or very lightly if they do! Upland, Waterfowl, Turkey hunters etc all seem to have a better sense of conservation and true harmony with the land, which is what we need for hunting to be sustainable for many years to come. Unfortunately deer hunters outnumber everyone else and control most of our land. Deer hunters as a stereotype are a toxic bunch that are driven by greed, and are our own worst enemy. I hate what it has become and I honestly am embarrassed for us collectively. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to kill a mature buck each season as I do the same myself, but it is the greed mentality that has driven people to do so that has ruined it. They have taken everything to the extreme in all directions and lost all sense of a moral compass. I interacted with more deer hunters this past season than I ever care to again. Many of them were wonderful people, but I had equally as many situations where I was reminded of everything I hate about the industry. This isn't the same deer hunting that I grew to enjoy as a youngster. Im not sure why any new hunter would want to be a part of this nonsense. Its all about keeping up with the Jones. As Brock stated in another thread, I am going to try my best to forget the past month.
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Stressless
Active Member
Joe taps out with Jesse bleeding from the gums and from out of the dark corner LWP leaps in with a flying two boot kick to the chest...
Very interesting read/views.
LWP, one of the things I've been trying to do with my wildlife habitat thread, learning while I go, is demonstrate how to:
- manage habitat
- thin invasive species
- thinning timber
- planting native plants
- planting shrubs and trees
- etc etc....
I've seen more and varied species of wildlife since I started being a steward the land then I ever did 'deer hunting'. I too hate what the deer hunting industry has done to the hunting tradition. This year I had two new hunters on the farm, both family, trying to revive the hunt camp tradition in whatever form works for them.
There are folks out here that are working on what we can change to better 'hunting' e.g., wildlife habitat, but most importantly, working to restore the camaraderie of the outdoor experience.
When you really listen to everything the two hosts state during the podcast, I don't know how we all can't walk away from it wanting to smack the shit out of them. The trophy hunting disease is 100% self-serving and as long as they have quality deer to put on the ground they are happy and could not give a shit about anyone else. The minute a neighbor dumps a corn pile and shoots a 3 year old buck with a crossbow they lose their mind. We have become our own worst enemy.While we're all in the cage match slinging mud. I'm gonna come off the top rope with a folding chair.
Big buck hunters are the problem. There I said it. Horn hunters have cause more problems and damage to the tradition of hunting than any other group. They are by far responsible for the overwhelming majority of bitching and complaining and finger pointing. No other group of hunters be it crossbow guys, trad guys, bait guys, gun only guys, or meat guys bitch about other hunters like buck hunters do. Maybe just maybe the problem isn't everybody else.
I'm gonna propose a solution. Ban the harvest of bucks over 140 inches.
Freaking awesome thread and ideas.
I too went ban baiting, not that it doesn't have its place but my neighbors with 1 and 2 ac yards and feeders aren't hunting ( and I'm not sorry if you think I am a dick for saying that) nor do I think everyone running corn in winter months and wooded regions do the herd a favor in terms of health. Its the common denominator for all of Ohio's deer drama. Outfitters cant plot the thousands of acres they grab up, garbage OOS folks wont buy 5 ac and put a feeder on it killing every 2yo that visits it for the week they're there in the fall, diseases wouldn't have such a prime opportunity spread, so on and so forth. It is just too easy of a way for killing to take place. I cannot get over the number of folks who dislike baiting but fall into "if you dont, your neighbor will" and other substantiations. The only reason anyone has for baiting is it is an easy direct result activity. Those that say it is the same as plots, trees, whatever have not spent their time growing and hunting plants/trees, nor are they smart enough to see the collateral benefits to which corn piles do not.
Local landowners are the root cause of leasing, some of which outfitting has driven to the point of where nonhunting landowners get on the wagon for. Very few leasers or outfitters ever put anything back into the land, herd, conservation, etc.
Here's the key one, and i state this spending so much time hunting in NY. Game law enforcement. If lawlessness is part of the culture, laws dont matter. All too often you hear about poachers, trespassers, this & that but there wasn't the timely response (or any at all) of the law. Once that chit starts, or is known for a region, its on a downward trajectory. Passing laws for only law abiding folks to follow will only drive more people out of hunting. It needs structure and support. When Ohio sees 2B worth of funds going into it- there needs to be
Quality landowners, whether locals or OOS, are where the resource benefits the most and subsequently everyone enjoying the resource sees the improvement.. Love it or not.
I too went ban baiting, not that it doesn't have its place but my neighbors with 1 and 2 ac yards and feeders aren't hunting ( and I'm not sorry if you think I am a dick for saying that) nor do I think everyone running corn in winter months and wooded regions do the herd a favor in terms of health. Its the common denominator for all of Ohio's deer drama. Outfitters cant plot the thousands of acres they grab up, garbage OOS folks wont buy 5 ac and put a feeder on it killing every 2yo that visits it for the week they're there in the fall, diseases wouldn't have such a prime opportunity spread, so on and so forth. It is just too easy of a way for killing to take place. I cannot get over the number of folks who dislike baiting but fall into "if you dont, your neighbor will" and other substantiations. The only reason anyone has for baiting is it is an easy direct result activity. Those that say it is the same as plots, trees, whatever have not spent their time growing and hunting plants/trees, nor are they smart enough to see the collateral benefits to which corn piles do not.
Local landowners are the root cause of leasing, some of which outfitting has driven to the point of where nonhunting landowners get on the wagon for. Very few leasers or outfitters ever put anything back into the land, herd, conservation, etc.
Here's the key one, and i state this spending so much time hunting in NY. Game law enforcement. If lawlessness is part of the culture, laws dont matter. All too often you hear about poachers, trespassers, this & that but there wasn't the timely response (or any at all) of the law. Once that chit starts, or is known for a region, its on a downward trajectory. Passing laws for only law abiding folks to follow will only drive more people out of hunting. It needs structure and support. When Ohio sees 2B worth of funds going into it- there needs to be
Quality landowners, whether locals or OOS, are where the resource benefits the most and subsequently everyone enjoying the resource sees the improvement.. Love it or not.
Not sure how many of you listen to podcasts or the HUNTR one as this issues has popped up a few times, as is the mention of an OH lobbyist group against baiting. Anyone know the name of them?
Wanted to throw this in as well. I don’t like crossbows personally. Bought one for the kids and none of us like shooting it. Can’t go on more but you likely know my take. I will say ohio having such a long archery season, short and well timed gun season, offsets my ilk against them. I’ve hunted all over the deers range and without a doubt, Ohios structure and weapons season is the best I’ve seen (and I also don’t love the late times ML). Rather than just bitch, wanted to throw some good out
Wanted to throw this in as well. I don’t like crossbows personally. Bought one for the kids and none of us like shooting it. Can’t go on more but you likely know my take. I will say ohio having such a long archery season, short and well timed gun season, offsets my ilk against them. I’ve hunted all over the deers range and without a doubt, Ohios structure and weapons season is the best I’ve seen (and I also don’t love the late times ML). Rather than just bitch, wanted to throw some good out