Sad Day For America
- Thread starter Hortontoter
- Start date
This morning is the first time I looked at this thread. My congratulations to all; you've posted your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs and have shown respect and have reasoned things thru; alot of people in a lot of other places haven't done quite this well with the topic. I hope y'all bear with me as I try to express myself.
I understand how Frank and Dick feel, I really do. Don't necessarily agree completely, but understand their feelings. Joe and Phil's initial posts mirror my sentiments. J's "don't ask/don't tell" policy works for me, as well as Jim's "don't give a fuck" policy. And it took courage for Dale to take his stance, and he has some valid points. This is a difficult topic to debate, but at this point in life for me, it's not a difficult topic at all to understand and have drawn my position on.
It wasn't all that long ago (when was the Victorian period, about 115-125 yrs ago?) that it would have been SCANDALOUS if a woman showed her ankle in public. Look at us now, look at what's acceptable.
I can understand how the folks just a little bit older than me are repulsed by the thought of homosexuals - the social conventions they grew up with had the queers in the closet and they were indoctrinated from the pulpit that it's an abomination. It was a horrid subject that was not to be mentioned.
Guys my age (50-ish) learned to call them queers and faggots and dykes, but media and television began to acknkowledge their existence and show them as funny characters, sidekicks, etc (think Billy Crystal in "Soap"). The homosexual presence on screen made it easier for both the gays and straights to acknowledge their presence, although it still took a lot of courage for a gay person to "come out" for many years (and still does to this day).
Now, as Brock said, our young people have been so indoctrinated to accept gay people that it's "no big thing". And probably rightfully so. It's a good thing. Because I've seen what living a lie can do, to more than one person who is gay, how it can destroy them. I believe gay people are born that way; they don't choose, it's the way they're wired. I don't believe that someone who's gay just "chooses" to be so; that young boy or girl who has a crush on someone of their own gender usually wishes it weren't so, because they know it's taboo. (Now I will say that there are those who fall into the category of experimenting by choice with both sides of the coin, but they are not the fundamentally gay people I'm talking about.)
Now, let's take it one step further: it's how God made them. Imagine my quandry - I've been preached at all my life that it's a horrible sin. I read in the Bible, the Word of God, that it's an abomination. And yet I have these people in my life - family and co-workers - who struggle because at their core, in their heart, they're attracted to people of the same sex. And these are good people - one is a woman who helped mentor me in my industry - and I have more respect for her as a person of hard work and integrity and values than most of the people I ever attended church with. I actually know a few people like that. And these men and women have bigger balls than me, because they daily live through challenges that are like a minefield, where one misstep could cause an explosive situation.
The situation that really cemented my thinking though is this one - I have a cousin who's a young girl, about 20 or so. She grew up in a two parent Christian churchgoing household in a somewhat rural area, with a grandfather who's a Methodist preacher. Good in school, soccer player, star in the 4H, just a sweet, gentle girl. But she's attracted to women, and has even expressed that she doesn't know who or what she is, if she is a boy or a girl. And she's now institutionalized, mentally ill, suicidal, and sadly (I really hope I'm wrong) I don't believe she'll live very long. Her father and her Grandpa have told her they don't care, that everybody loves her, and they'll accept her. I don't have the opportunity right now to see her, but if I did, that's the exact same thing I'd tell her. I don't give two shits what people say, what Christianity or Judaism or Islam have to say, what the OT Bible regs say about it; fuck 'em all, I choose to love this girl. She's a good girl at heart, just the way she is.
If you're straight and you're an asshole, guess what? You're an asshole.
If you're gay and you're an asshole, guess what? You're an asshole.
If you're pink with purple polka-dots and an extra eye in your forehead and you're a stand-up guy? That makes you a stand up guy.
When I was a young church-going man, I knew it all. Now that I'm older, I understand just how little I know. And how wrong I've been in the past.
Some things remain black and white. Many other things are gray, and should be given the CJD treatment (realize it's not worth giving a precious fuck).
Doesn't mean I'm anti-religious, no, far from it. I love and believe in God. Love His Word. Even enjoy being in a church. Mostly if I'm alone and not surrounded by self-righteous judgmental Pharisees.
People twist the Bible for their own purposes. Take shit out of context to further their belief or position. But Jesus distilled that shit down, made it easy, but people miss the mark. Wanna be righteous? Love God. Then love your fellow man.
Bingo. No bullshit. Just do it.
I like what was said about our government being "slight of hand" artists. This was a bad week overall; Obamacare is likely here to stay, with the added benefit of being divisive and contentious and keeping people fighting. While I believe gay people should not be discriminated against, and should be able to marry or have civil unions that give them the same benefits as hetero couples, I think that the ruling overstepped and was a state issue. Bad things man. We should ALL be able to "Live Free or Die". And while this week's rulings APPEAR to have given freedom to a certain segment of society and solidified the right of all to affordable care, our government was not strengthened this week. Not at all. There are other issues we should be addressing.
I commend Brock on his courage to speak out openly about the difficulties of marriage. And for having the balls to do what's right for his family.
Balls, man, balls.
Now I'll click "Post Quick Reply". Although this post doesn't qualify, sorry.
I understand how Frank and Dick feel, I really do. Don't necessarily agree completely, but understand their feelings. Joe and Phil's initial posts mirror my sentiments. J's "don't ask/don't tell" policy works for me, as well as Jim's "don't give a fuck" policy. And it took courage for Dale to take his stance, and he has some valid points. This is a difficult topic to debate, but at this point in life for me, it's not a difficult topic at all to understand and have drawn my position on.
It wasn't all that long ago (when was the Victorian period, about 115-125 yrs ago?) that it would have been SCANDALOUS if a woman showed her ankle in public. Look at us now, look at what's acceptable.
I can understand how the folks just a little bit older than me are repulsed by the thought of homosexuals - the social conventions they grew up with had the queers in the closet and they were indoctrinated from the pulpit that it's an abomination. It was a horrid subject that was not to be mentioned.
Guys my age (50-ish) learned to call them queers and faggots and dykes, but media and television began to acknkowledge their existence and show them as funny characters, sidekicks, etc (think Billy Crystal in "Soap"). The homosexual presence on screen made it easier for both the gays and straights to acknowledge their presence, although it still took a lot of courage for a gay person to "come out" for many years (and still does to this day).
Now, as Brock said, our young people have been so indoctrinated to accept gay people that it's "no big thing". And probably rightfully so. It's a good thing. Because I've seen what living a lie can do, to more than one person who is gay, how it can destroy them. I believe gay people are born that way; they don't choose, it's the way they're wired. I don't believe that someone who's gay just "chooses" to be so; that young boy or girl who has a crush on someone of their own gender usually wishes it weren't so, because they know it's taboo. (Now I will say that there are those who fall into the category of experimenting by choice with both sides of the coin, but they are not the fundamentally gay people I'm talking about.)
Now, let's take it one step further: it's how God made them. Imagine my quandry - I've been preached at all my life that it's a horrible sin. I read in the Bible, the Word of God, that it's an abomination. And yet I have these people in my life - family and co-workers - who struggle because at their core, in their heart, they're attracted to people of the same sex. And these are good people - one is a woman who helped mentor me in my industry - and I have more respect for her as a person of hard work and integrity and values than most of the people I ever attended church with. I actually know a few people like that. And these men and women have bigger balls than me, because they daily live through challenges that are like a minefield, where one misstep could cause an explosive situation.
The situation that really cemented my thinking though is this one - I have a cousin who's a young girl, about 20 or so. She grew up in a two parent Christian churchgoing household in a somewhat rural area, with a grandfather who's a Methodist preacher. Good in school, soccer player, star in the 4H, just a sweet, gentle girl. But she's attracted to women, and has even expressed that she doesn't know who or what she is, if she is a boy or a girl. And she's now institutionalized, mentally ill, suicidal, and sadly (I really hope I'm wrong) I don't believe she'll live very long. Her father and her Grandpa have told her they don't care, that everybody loves her, and they'll accept her. I don't have the opportunity right now to see her, but if I did, that's the exact same thing I'd tell her. I don't give two shits what people say, what Christianity or Judaism or Islam have to say, what the OT Bible regs say about it; fuck 'em all, I choose to love this girl. She's a good girl at heart, just the way she is.
If you're straight and you're an asshole, guess what? You're an asshole.
If you're gay and you're an asshole, guess what? You're an asshole.
If you're pink with purple polka-dots and an extra eye in your forehead and you're a stand-up guy? That makes you a stand up guy.
When I was a young church-going man, I knew it all. Now that I'm older, I understand just how little I know. And how wrong I've been in the past.
Some things remain black and white. Many other things are gray, and should be given the CJD treatment (realize it's not worth giving a precious fuck).
Doesn't mean I'm anti-religious, no, far from it. I love and believe in God. Love His Word. Even enjoy being in a church. Mostly if I'm alone and not surrounded by self-righteous judgmental Pharisees.
People twist the Bible for their own purposes. Take shit out of context to further their belief or position. But Jesus distilled that shit down, made it easy, but people miss the mark. Wanna be righteous? Love God. Then love your fellow man.
Bingo. No bullshit. Just do it.
I like what was said about our government being "slight of hand" artists. This was a bad week overall; Obamacare is likely here to stay, with the added benefit of being divisive and contentious and keeping people fighting. While I believe gay people should not be discriminated against, and should be able to marry or have civil unions that give them the same benefits as hetero couples, I think that the ruling overstepped and was a state issue. Bad things man. We should ALL be able to "Live Free or Die". And while this week's rulings APPEAR to have given freedom to a certain segment of society and solidified the right of all to affordable care, our government was not strengthened this week. Not at all. There are other issues we should be addressing.
I commend Brock on his courage to speak out openly about the difficulties of marriage. And for having the balls to do what's right for his family.
Balls, man, balls.
Now I'll click "Post Quick Reply". Although this post doesn't qualify, sorry.
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huntn2
Senior Member
Flatlander
Junior Member
This is the best post I've read in this thread! And also for the record Dale....there are more people who feel the same way you do and I am one of them. The posts you made express my thought exactly!
It is interesting to read the views expressed here. I think Dan hits the nail on the head for the most part. I believe the time frame one was raised in has a lot to do with how one perceives society today.
I think from here on out I'll just keep my old man thoughts to myself and just post threads in the trail camera section.
I think from here on out I'll just keep my old man thoughts to myself and just post threads in the trail camera section.
Please don't do that because if we remain silent then we lower ourselves to the lowest of lowest. I'm a person who will not and can not suffer in silence. Nor shall I do so and like it or not that's the way I am. Just everyone agree to disagree and leave it at that! Amen.
Big_Holla
Senior Member
Nope Dick you need to still have your opinion and still voice it, this thread with everyone's views and how we all are handling it shows how it sparks good conversation.
Flatlander
Junior Member
I see the Supreme Courts action as standing up for ones rights not taking them away. I'll bet everyone here would love to make concealed carry a national issue yet some believe gay rights should be a state issue?
I don't get it......I suppose many in the south still believe in slavery too....it's a good thing it's not a state issue.
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I never supported the CCW law being a national issue. It's a state issue also. As for slavery. Under today's system we're nothing more than paid slaves. The working man today has to work a full 4-6 months just to meet their tax obligations. All the while the government is running up the national debt. The only thing that debt is backed by is future American labor and taxes. The rest of our working lives, and that of our children's, is being used as collateral for debt to foreign countries. If that's not slavery, I don't know what to call it.
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Here's how I see it. They have as much right to be gay as someone else does not to like them. Although society would say you're wrong I don't think so. It's your right not to like them. And for a group of people that preach tolerance and acceptance they sure aren't very tolerant or accepting of other people's beliefs or opinions.
The beautiful thing people have forgotten in this country is people have a right not to like or agree with other people. There is no wrong or right on victimless issues like this. The problem comes in when those people that don't like something try to deprave the other side. For example. It's well within someone right to disagree with us owning guns. The problem arises when they try to make guns illegal and deprave us from them. It's well within your right not to like or agree with gay marriage. The problem comes in when those that don't agree try to make it illegal and deprave them the right to marry who they want.
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Straight couples aren't doing such a hot job of raising their kids either. I see kids everyday raised like heathens, no manners, getting arrested, etc. and for that matter adults who were obviously raised by idiots. The jails, welfare lines, and heroin houses are full of people raised by straight couples. A gay couple teaching their kid that being gay is ok is the least of the parenting problems we have in this country. The reality is they can't screw up kids any worse than straight parents can and have.
Damn good post Danno!!!
Lots of good points made on this thread going to both sides.
Dan mentioned this a bit and I'll just expand on it.
I also have faith in God and am a believer in him and his word. If I didn't read the words, "love thy neighbor" more than a dozen or so times throughout the New Testament I'd be surprised!!!
Loving one another was/is the main emphasis I gathered when I read the NT.
I have a hard time loving people doing evil so I pray God gives me so leeway on that part.
As for gay marriage, what they do is their business, IMO.
Dick, say what you feel, doesn't make you wrong or right, your just showing your stance on a topic, IMO.
Lots of good points made on this thread going to both sides.
Dan mentioned this a bit and I'll just expand on it.
I also have faith in God and am a believer in him and his word. If I didn't read the words, "love thy neighbor" more than a dozen or so times throughout the New Testament I'd be surprised!!!
Loving one another was/is the main emphasis I gathered when I read the NT.
I have a hard time loving people doing evil so I pray God gives me so leeway on that part.
As for gay marriage, what they do is their business, IMO.
Dick, say what you feel, doesn't make you wrong or right, your just showing your stance on a topic, IMO.
What's great about this site is everyone can say how they feel and not get bashed for it. We value your input. Who cares if We agree or disagree?
Flatlander
Junior Member
Dick, I'd feel bad if you would relegate yourself too just that thread.... Everyone's opinion matters on this site.... Join in and give your perspective on any subject....