To many deer odnr
- Thread starter Wiley E Coyote
- Start date
People don't care enough to take the time. This is why I've preached for years that this will be a rich man's game in my lifetime. ODNR will make whatever rules they want but a majority of the deer will be managed by the leaseholder. All about the antlers anymore. Disgust me.
Mickey Merrie
Junior Member
I can't understand all the nuances of all that. My job is to kill stuff then eat it. That's what I do.
Seriously though. Over here in Pa. I had a place to hunt that was 1,400 acres. The land owner had his own saw mill and gave out about 140 permits each year. But he was in a border war with his neighbor, a gay man from Cleveland named Carlisle (Carlisle's Department stores)who owned 2100 acres and boarders his east boundary. His Ohio friends hunted the 2100 acres but none of us could ever gain permission. Then his boyfriend became a caretaker and lived there. he was a wildlife artist named Woods. Once my landowner died his wayward son took over and started a lease arrangement to support his habits and his mom. Then Carlisle died and Woods inherited the hunting lodge and some acreage around it. Then my land owner's wife died and an exclusive group out of Pittsburgh and Bradford Pa wound up with both properties and locked it all down and patrol's it year round. They even shut down the trout stream running through the middle of it to outsiders. The fish commission stocks the creek just above and just below the property line to this day. Guess where those fish end up...
The moral of my story is you can't calculate the madness of men nor navigate the politics of them either. many hunters and fishers are greedy self centered S.O.B.s and barely care about their own families let alone their hunting brethren, the rest of us have too busy lives trying to get everything done at work and at home to take on another calling like is needed. But the worst part of it is our licenses, premiums and fee's are used against us by the authorities who further benefit by the lobbies who contribute to them as well...
As for the hunting and fishing and gun and bow organizations I've belonged to? I am nothing more than a revenue source when it all comes down to it.
Seriously though. Over here in Pa. I had a place to hunt that was 1,400 acres. The land owner had his own saw mill and gave out about 140 permits each year. But he was in a border war with his neighbor, a gay man from Cleveland named Carlisle (Carlisle's Department stores)who owned 2100 acres and boarders his east boundary. His Ohio friends hunted the 2100 acres but none of us could ever gain permission. Then his boyfriend became a caretaker and lived there. he was a wildlife artist named Woods. Once my landowner died his wayward son took over and started a lease arrangement to support his habits and his mom. Then Carlisle died and Woods inherited the hunting lodge and some acreage around it. Then my land owner's wife died and an exclusive group out of Pittsburgh and Bradford Pa wound up with both properties and locked it all down and patrol's it year round. They even shut down the trout stream running through the middle of it to outsiders. The fish commission stocks the creek just above and just below the property line to this day. Guess where those fish end up...
The moral of my story is you can't calculate the madness of men nor navigate the politics of them either. many hunters and fishers are greedy self centered S.O.B.s and barely care about their own families let alone their hunting brethren, the rest of us have too busy lives trying to get everything done at work and at home to take on another calling like is needed. But the worst part of it is our licenses, premiums and fee's are used against us by the authorities who further benefit by the lobbies who contribute to them as well...
As for the hunting and fishing and gun and bow organizations I've belonged to? I am nothing more than a revenue source when it all comes down to it.
Mickey Merrie
Junior Member
That is not entirely true. Lots of people, myself included (and others here, I'm sure), have put in plenty of time, effort and money to make sportsman's voices heard in an organized fashion. Our concerns fell on deaf ears back then just like they do today. It became an exercise in futility, and at some point you have to stop wasting your time. Hunters cannot do a damn thing to keep the DOW from doing whatever they want. They pretend to listen but do what the money tells them to. Everybody was all about unfettered leasing 25 years ago, and you were a selfish fucking asshole back then for saying that it is bad idea for hunters as a whole, and that eventually Ohio will go the way of the South and Europe. Everybody was all about baiting 25 years ago and today it has some real serious ramifications that we all recognize as negative. People keep right on doing it.
I do agree that apathy among the hunting community is at an all-time high, although it as always been a problem. People don't seen to "join" much these days, and our collective voice gets softer and softer because of it. Most sportsman's organizations take your money and are completely impotent to foster change, which is why I don't support as many as I used to. How much do you suppose the DOW and Wildlife Council actually work with sportsman's groups today? My guess is practically not at all. Apathy and attrition hurt hunting more than anything, and those two together are a snowball rolling down a hill now.
Mickey Merrie
Junior Member
I agree with you Jamie. That is where many of us walked, until we saw the futility of it all. I started with the Boy Scouts as a kid. Have belonged to Gun Clubs, Pheasants Forever, National Wild Turkey Federation, D.U., Western Pa Duck Hunters Assoc. NRA, SONS of Lake Erie (Save our Native Species) and was even V.P for Hunt of a Lifetime Foundation back in the day. Unfortunately competing interests, not necessarily aligned with what should be the best interest of the stated goals of the organization, along with straw bosses and Lil Napolean's wanting to build their own fifedom have short circuited all the effort and good will folks like you and I and many others have endeavored to build. Many of those wanna be chief's haven't really hunted or fished in years...
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I'm happy that Jamie and Mickey gave you more political answers before I tried. If you look back on TOO for year's we tried to lead the charge, educate hunters, and take on the ODNR regarding their deer program issues. Hunters as a group are rather ignorant and rarely ever look at the bigger picture. As long as they can buy a new 350 Legend, 450 Bushmaster, shoot 50 more FPS than their old bow they don't give a shit. I'll be honest with you, i'd rather eat water with a fork than try to push that rock uphill again. Today when I read something like this article I just shake my head and say "we fucking told you"
I'm happy that Jamie and Mickey gave you more political answers before I tried. If you look back on TOO for year's we tried to lead the charge, educate hunters, and take on the ODNR regarding their deer program issues. Hunters as a group are rather ignorant and rarely ever look at the bigger picture. As long as they can buy a new 350 Legend, 450 Bushmaster, shoot 50 more FPS than their old bow they don't give a shit. I'll be honest with you, i'd rather eat water with a fork than try to push that rock uphill again. Today when I read something like this article I just shake my head and say "we fucking told you"
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Mickey Merrie
Junior Member
I had a friend who recently passed away. We played baseball together in college and before that when our neighborhoods crossed on the sandlots fields in the summer. He was an attorney and spent time on a politicians staff in DC. He also was one of the Commissioners for the Pennsylvania Game Commission. He had recently retired to run a fly fishing business and guide. (Rich man's game).
I'm sure I wrote here on his telling me about the Game Commission's official position on Mountain Lions being extinct in Pa.
"If they were here, and I am not saying they are, we would have to declare them an endangered species, manage them and it would take up most of our revenue to do so. Our position is they are extinct in Pa."
He told me volumes by not telling me anything and not answering my question given the number of credible witnesses to their potential existance, including my own!
The agenda's are controlled by future revenue streams, not the licenses purchased as that they already have! Gas leases, timber leases, insurance lobby and corporate farm interests are where the future resides. As for the employees of the commission? Get home each night, decent pay, excellent health benefits and a government pension! Any idealism is gone after a couple of years. Why upset the management?
I'm sure I wrote here on his telling me about the Game Commission's official position on Mountain Lions being extinct in Pa.
"If they were here, and I am not saying they are, we would have to declare them an endangered species, manage them and it would take up most of our revenue to do so. Our position is they are extinct in Pa."
He told me volumes by not telling me anything and not answering my question given the number of credible witnesses to their potential existance, including my own!
The agenda's are controlled by future revenue streams, not the licenses purchased as that they already have! Gas leases, timber leases, insurance lobby and corporate farm interests are where the future resides. As for the employees of the commission? Get home each night, decent pay, excellent health benefits and a government pension! Any idealism is gone after a couple of years. Why upset the management?
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The tail wags the dog for sure. Insurance companies and farm lobbyists run the ODNR through lobbyists and the state congressional reps. Hunters are just the poor fools who pay the bills. And it doesn't matter how bad they screw it up and reduce harvest numbers, they'll just raise license and tag fees to make up for the losses. Hunters will even advocate for the fee increase as a good thing without ever seeing the bigger picture. They don't care because
Mickey Merrie
Junior Member
Provided you buy the privilege stamps that go on top of the license fee...More revenue! Buying your license is like casting your vote or answering a poll...
This is true of any government job, which why government cannot be trusted to do anything correctly and within a budget.
Doing some thinking as I plan to take my state limit this year. I enjoyed hunting much more back when I didn't know what I do now. It has been a tough battle with myself. I will spread my practice out to help the mental load. But this mornings self argument has been pheasant and Qual hunting. The state knows it is in desperate need of help and continues to have hunting seasons. What makes anyone think that they won't do the same with deer? That seems to be the plan. Abuse the resources, not manage.
Deer make them assloads of money, small game that only requires a resident hunting license does not. Easy math.
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triple_duece
Ragin Cajun.
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He don’t hate the player, he hates the game….Dang tell me you hate out of state hunters without telling me!
triple_duece
Ragin Cajun.
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Everyone does when oos hunters come to your state. But, it’s perfectly ok with us going to someone else’s. Personally I love it when oos hunters and fisherman come.He don’t hate the player, he hates the game….
Fact is every out of state person brings money to your economy. Much less the states license cost. What I do agree on is outfitters buying up leases to basically rape the resources. Prices for lease land will never go down and the public lands get worse. How does new hunters get a chance to open their eyes to the outdoors on public, it’s a tuff sell especially with no mentor.
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It's not worth going. They are controlled by lobbyist. No reason to waste your time. Fact.
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Read into it wtf ever you want. Doesn't matter to me. Fact is I know several pieces of ground that were once hunted by a lot of folks that are now tied up by oos hunters that utilize the place a week a year. It is what it is, and it is BS. If we went to a drawing the state would be able to generate the same revenue and limit the access issues many now encounter.Dang tell me you hate out of state hunters without telling me!
We still have good deer in spite of the DOW's best efforts. It could be so much better. I had a lengthy talk with a guy from NC yesterday regarding "cull" deer. He didn't think much of my opinion. His argument was that there were "old" bucks on their lease ground that only had four or six point racks. Their lease ground borders ground I OWN. There are NO old bucks there or I wouldn't be using our piece for only squirrel hunting. He just doesn't want to go home empty handed so they continue to shoot young bucks (which in turn will never become old). They are "cull" bucks according to this genius. So yeah, today I'm all in favor of Ohio going to a draw to limit these idiots from doing to Ohio what they have done to their own states with their "culling" practices. "We don't have any big deer. Ohio has the genetics".....BS, Ohio has a one buck limit, for now, and until recently a muzzleloader was the most effective weapon allowed. How in the heck do these oos think it's a good idea to kill a half dozen bucks in their home states annually and then have the audacity to blame genetics? Quit shooting babies, morons, and you won't have to lease half the state of Ohio to have a chance at an older deer.
While I'm on a rant, ban bait, Ban crossbows, and ban grown men from sitting in a tent with a crossbow on a tripod while watching a pile of corn. It ain't hunting and your a candyass if you do it. And make bowhunter ed mandatory!
triple_duece
Ragin Cajun.
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