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Covid vaccinations

Jamie

Senior Member
3,936
118
Licking Co.
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and finally, stage four begins. alarmist whacko theory becoming reality. pass the popcorn...
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
34,332
212
Theres more talk about mandatory vaccinations for schools, colleges, and employers floating around now - ho lee shit

I mean did people think they would stop short of anything less? The government has been setting this up all along to get their liberal friends in the private sector to push the mandatory agenda. If that doesn't work the feds will push it by withholding funding for any place that gets federal money such as Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements or even highway funding if they choose to.
 

giles

Village idiot and local whore
Supporting Member
33,595
190
In a bar
I have a good example that pisses me off to no end. No secret that my dad has been very ill the last couple of years. I tried to push to get his blood tested for antibodies. My family didn't understand why and they wouldn't even ask the doctor to do it. Dad hasn't been home since December and got his fist shot Wednesday... In my book, this is a complete unnecessary risk on a weak body. Second shot due on the 30th.
 
I have a good example that pisses me off to no end. No secret that my dad has been very ill the last couple of years. I tried to push to get his blood tested for antibodies. My family didn't understand why and they wouldn't even ask the doctor to do it. Dad hasn't been home since December and got his fist shot Wednesday... In my book, this is a complete unnecessary risk on a weak body. Second shot due on the 30th.

Prayers for Dad -
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,854
113
Streetsboro
My issue with the vaccination push is they've always pushed it as an absolute. The narrative is "The only way to be safe is to get this very understudied injection that has zero legal liabilities", and they subversivly suggest that if you don't, then you are in grave danger. The line they've drawn in the sand was always an absolute. They railed against natural immunity and still insisted that people get vaccinated. Now we're seeing data that follows just about every vaccine in history, natural infection almost always provides comparable or better immune protection. For some diseases like polio, natural immunity isn't an option because of the universal severity of the disease. But with Covid we have a massive portion of the population who have a very small risk percentage of developing a severe case,. Some 40%+ of the population will never even know they have it. How is that different than the 90% of the vaccinated population that can still catch it but will never know they have it. Yet the unvaccinated are being pushed just the same regardles of their risk profile. It's natural that people are skeptical of the vaccine and feel lied to, because it's blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention that they're indeed being lied to.
Joe, I think we can agree that the entire response to COVID was handled poorly. It certainly didn't help having a President who was an absolute moron when it comes to all things medical. This was a novel virus. Mistakes were made in trying to implement strategies that worked with other viruses. Presently, we are doing much better treating those who are symptomatic and we have ample PPE. Although there is no long-term data, the short-term data is indisputable that the vaccines, at a minimum prevent people from becoming symptomatic. I have no idea where you are pulling your 90% figure, I've not read or heard anything similar. And if you don't think the anti-vaxer contingent is lying and fear mongering....well I just don't think there is even a point in trying to have a constructive conversation. I guess I'll just go and put some more keys and paperclips on my magnetized body.....;)
 
Theres more talk about mandatory vaccinations for schools, colleges, and employers floating around now - ho lee shit

Yep, my son just attended a meeting for his summer cross country camp. Was told if any students did not have the vaccine they would be mandated to wear a mask 100% of the time even during training. He said no big deal, he'd wear the mask rather than miss out on the camp 2 years in a row, this one being his senior year. Very few of our HS students have received the vaccine but I guess this is their way to point out who the good kids are and who are in families of rebels.
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,854
113
Streetsboro
Yep, my son just attended a meeting for his summer cross country camp. Was told if any students did not have the vaccine they would be mandated to wear a mask 100% of the time even during training. He said no big deal, he'd wear the mask rather than miss out on the camp 2 years in a row, this one being his senior year. Very few of our HS students have received the vaccine but I guess this is their way to point out who the good kids are and who are in families of rebels.
Where are you located? I'm not hearing anything like this. We actually just participated in the state track meet. Stands were full capacity....no masks. My younger son is already in offseason football conditioning...no masks.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
23,077
188
Joe, I think we can agree that the entire response to COVID was handled poorly. It certainly didn't help having a President who was an absolute moron when it comes to all things medical. This was a novel virus. Mistakes were made in trying to implement strategies that worked with other viruses. Presently, we are doing much better treating those who are symptomatic and we have ample PPE. Although there is no long-term data, the short-term data is indisputable that the vaccines, at a minimum prevent people from becoming symptomatic. I have no idea where you are pulling your 90% figure, I've not read or heard anything similar. And if you don't think the anti-vaxer contingent is lying and fear mongering....well I just don't think there is even a point in trying to have a constructive conversation. I guess I'll just go and put some more keys and paperclips on my magnetized body.....;)
If you were looking to keep credibility, at least with me, you lost it. Trump handled the situation far better than I’d expect anyone to. Closed down travel from China, ramped up production of ventilators, found PPE production stateside when the Chinese threatened to cut off supply, operation warp speed , held daily press conferences where he did very little talking allowing Birks and Fauci to lead the way- daily, sent military medical ships to both coasts.... yeah, he’s a moron. Joe Biden cannot complete a sentence. If he were in the White House at the time I’m sure you feel things would have gone much smoother during this novel pandemic.
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,854
113
Streetsboro
If you were looking to keep credibility, at least with me, you lost it. Trump handled the situation far better than I’d expect anyone to. Closed down travel from China, ramped up production of ventilators, found PPE production stateside when the Chinese threatened to cut off supply, operation warp speed , held daily press conferences where he did very little talking allowing Birks and Fauci to lead the way- daily, sent military medical ships to both coasts.... yeah, he’s a moron. Joe Biden cannot complete a sentence. If he were in the White House at the time I’m sure you feel things would have gone much smoother during this novel pandemic.
Lol...never voted for a Democrat in my life....ever. Clearly we have very different recollections of his press conferences.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
34,332
212
Joe, I think we can agree that the entire response to COVID was handled poorly. It certainly didn't help having a President who was an absolute moron when it comes to all things medical. This was a novel virus. Mistakes were made in trying to implement strategies that worked with other viruses. Presently, we are doing much better treating those who are symptomatic and we have ample PPE. Although there is no long-term data, the short-term data is indisputable that the vaccines, at a minimum prevent people from becoming symptomatic. I have no idea where you are pulling your 90% figure, I've not read or heard anything similar. And if you don't think the anti-vaxer contingent is lying and fear mongering....well I just don't think there is even a point in trying to have a constructive conversation. I guess I'll just go and put some more keys and paperclips on my magnetized body.....;)

I didn't pull that figure. It's simply logic. The vaccine has proven over 90% effective at preventing symptomatic infection. Yet it has also been proven that despite being vaccinated people can, and do, still catch covid. So when they say "90% effective at preventing symptomatic infection" the keyword there is infection. Knowing that we then know that means that 90% can catch it and never know they have it, they won't have symptoms. My question above was, how are they (the 90%) any better than the 40% of the unvacxinated population who caught covid and had zero symptoms. Simply put they aren't. So why then are we saying that vaccination is an all or nothing approach. Why aren't the people with equal natural immunity considered? The data for natural vs vaccine immunity is neck and neck, with a slight immune response edge going to natural immunity. Yet the push is every man, woman, and child. It's lunacy.

As for the virus itself. Don't confuse the word "novel" to mean that it was some shit we've never seen before and had no idea. "Novel" simply means the virus strain itself is new. Every year we have a "novel" influenza strain. That does not mean influenza is a novel virus. It is a novel coronavirus, not that coronavirus is novel. We had plenty of experience with other covids such as Mers, Sars, and had a very good understanding of viral threat factors. A pandemic should't have been a surprise to anyone. Every year prior to Covid-19 I reviewed and updated my employers pandemic response plan. I rolled my eyes, but I did it. Why, because preparedness is key. You don't wear your seatbelt because you know you're going to get in an accident. You wear it because of the possibility. I updated that stupid plan for year's because of the possibility. Thank God I did. The CDC has been warning about a pandemic for decades. If you want to hang that noose of unorepardness around Trumps neck then so be it, but you couldn't be any more wrong. The failures of the response started long before him. The CDC has proven themselves time and time again to be completely inept at every step.

Private for profit health systems should take a lions share of responsibility for being unprepared also. For decades they put profit ahead of preparedness. They, of all people, should have been prepared for a pandemic. Not only do they employ a shitload of doctors that have always known the danger and odds of a pandemic, but they also failed misserably on their duty to be prepared by nature of their role as part of the countries health system. Their failure and subsequent blame game towards the federal government for their lack of PPE stockpiles is absurd. They clearly put profit and shareholder returns ahead of preparedness. They then poor mouthed and expected uncle Sam to bail their ass out. Healthcare employees working at for profit health systems have nobody to blame but their own employer for their lack of personal protection.
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,854
113
Streetsboro
Joe...I don't disagree with some of what you are saying. I too think it's ridiculous that they are pushing vacinations for those who have already had the virus. Makes no sense to me and most of the medical professionals I've talked with. And just ot be clear, again you are correct this is a coronavirus and at least from a medical treatment perspective therapies that were used for SARS and MERS were implemented, often with catastofic results. Placing COVID patient on vents with high pressure ventalation probably killed more people than it saved...but hey it's just another coronavirus.

I'm not sure why you singled out for profit Health systems. Most, if not all of the hospitalis in our region are Not-for-profit and were in the exact same situation.

I'd actually be interested to hear your honest opinion on if vaccines are working. What do you see when you look at the data? What facotrs are driving postive numbers down? Less testing, virus burnout? Natrual immunity??
 
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I didn't pull that figure. It's simply logic. The vaccine has proven over 90% effective at preventing symptomatic infection. Yet it has also been proven that despite being vaccinated people can, and do, still catch covid. So when they say "90% effective at preventing symptomatic infection" the keyword there is infection. Knowing that we then know that means that 90% can catch it and never know they have it, they won't have symptoms. My question above was, how are they (the 90%) any better than the 40% of the unvacxinated population who caught covid and had zero symptoms. Simply put they aren't. So why then are we saying that vaccination is an all or nothing approach. Why aren't the people with equal natural immunity considered? The data for natural vs vaccine immunity is neck and neck, with a slight immune response edge going to natural immunity. Yet the push is every man, woman, and child. It's lunacy.

As for the virus itself. Don't confuse the word "novel" to mean that it was some shit we've never seen before and had no idea. "Novel" simply means the virus strain itself is new. Every year we have a "novel" influenza strain. That does not mean influenza is a novel virus. It is a novel coronavirus, not that coronavirus is novel. We had plenty of experience with other covids such as Mers, Sars, and had a very good understanding of viral threat factors. A pandemic should't have been a surprise to anyone. Every year prior to Covid-19 I reviewed and updated my employers pandemic response plan. I rolled my eyes, but I did it. Why, because preparedness is key. You don't wear your seatbelt because you know you're going to get in an accident. You wear it because of the possibility. I updated that stupid plan for year's because of the possibility. Thank God I did. The CDC has been warning about a pandemic for decades. If you want to hang that noose of unorepardness around Trumps neck then so be it, but you couldn't be any more wrong. The failures of the response started long before him. The CDC has proven themselves time and time again to be completely inept at every step.

Private for profit health systems should take a lions share of responsibility for being unprepared also. For decades they put profit ahead of preparedness. They, of all people, should have been prepared for a pandemic. Not only do they employ a shitload of doctors that have always known the danger and odds of a pandemic, but they also failed misserably on their duty to be prepared by nature of their role as part of the countries health system. Their failure and subsequent blame game towards the federal government for their lack of PPE stockpiles is absurd. They clearly put profit and shareholder returns ahead of preparedness. They then poor mouthed and expected uncle Sam to bail their ass out. Healthcare employees working at for profit health systems have nobody to blame but their own employer for their lack of personal protection.
The key word is symptoms. You can, according to them have the infection but show mild to no symptoms of COVID. Thus you can spread it also, but feel better and better about yourself for getting the shot, not a vaccine but experimental gene therapy. Did the masks help? a little I'm sure but based on the size of the virus an n95 mask is akin to stopping deer flies with a cyclone fence. Actually the thing that helped the most was probably the sanitizer and secondly social distancing. It was an unknown at the start and we must not forget that. Unknown by most that is. There were folks who knew in China, Canada and the USA who funded and worked on manufacturing the virus as well as the crisis and the planned outcome. Anything that did not fit there, "Problem, Reaction and Solution." was attacked. Simply Google Hegelian Dialectic and Cognitive Dissonance and you will better understand the process played out before your vary eyes! Since the shot was a choice, I don't fault anyone's decision either way, nor should anyone else. The information and disinformation was out there and each person had to decide their own course of action which was further influenced/mandated by state and local authorities along with strong suggestion by the Feds and organization like the WHO. For most folks it boiled down to a combination of who they trust for news and information, along with their personal preferences. Things like, "I want to protect my family." Or, "I want life to return to normal." Or "I don't trust the people running the system." These all played in. Just like a home invasion, you don't want it to ever happen at your place and you are faced with choices you must make at the time and deal with the consequences regardless. We need to move forward with the realization that there are real conspiracies and not just theories and that those behind the curtain pulling the agenda levers are not doing it for our benefit. Right wing, Left wing...same dirty bird. Move forward with situational awareness and don't trust those who you can't get your hands on, then barely trust those you can. Remember trust but verify? Thank God for different views and good friends and family but use God given logical thought instead of feelings going forward. Good people want to be left alone and leave other good people alone as we pursue our God given and Constitutional Rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Unfortunately today too many folks are driven by their emotions and are not in control of their own actions because they are too busy trying to manipulate and control everyone and everything but themselves. It is sad really...But it is the playing field and opposition we now all face!
 
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Jackalope

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Joe...I don't disagree with some of what you are saying. I too think it's ridiculous that they are pushing vacinations for those who have already had the virus. Makes no sense to me and most of the medical professionals I've talked with. And just ot be clear, again you are correct this is a coronavirus and at least from a medical treatment perspective therapies that were used for SARS and MERS were implemented, often with catastofic results. Placing COVID patient on vents with high pressure ventalation probably killed more people than it saved...but hey it's just another coronavirus.

I'm not sure why you singled out for profit Health systems. Most, if not all of the hospitalis in our region are Not-for-profit and were in the exact same situation.

I'd actually be interested to hear your honest opinion on if vaccines are working. What do you see when you look at the data? What facotrs are driving postive numbers down? Less testing, virus burnout? Natrual immunity??

I'll start with the last thing first. The injection absolutely works at preventing severe infection and as a result, drastically reduces deaths and hospitalizations. That is indisputable. The vaccination is actually more of a pre-viral therapeutic. Meaning you can still catch covid, and if you do, the odds are great that you won't have any symptoms. It's almost like getting an allergy shot. You're still susceptible to allergies, but your symptoms are either going to be far less or not at all depending on exposure and other factors. They work differently but the point is they're both preventative therapeutics.

For the numbers dropping it's really three things. 1. We've always had untraced spread. Sick people who don't know they're sick so they don't get tested. They never counted in the original case numbers but they still matter because of natural immunity. A study that NY did where they antibody tested a huge number of random people found that their positive antibody rate was something like 10x the number of the positive case rate. Meaning most people that had it never got tested. Similar data was found in California. That's important to know because it means we probably have far far more people with natural immunity than tested positive. The second is the vaccinated people who don't have symptoms and don't get tested. The vaccine also reduces transmission by its ability to reduce viral load. So those are two huge factors that have resulted in a massive decline in positive cases. Something that we are seeing in places with mandatory testing regardless of vaccine status is vaccinated people are still testing positive. That talk show guy, I forget his name, and the NY Yankees had a big outbreak and they were vaccinated. But how many places are actually doing weekly testing of all staff and not excluding the vaccinated staff. So it's still out there, it's just running undetected and far less impactful. And we're only protected for as long as the vaccination and natural immunity provides protection. As the durability wears off over time we'll slowly see increases in cases. That's why they're talking about booster shots etc. When that start to show has yet to be seen and can't be predicted.

For the vent thing. I wouldn't say high-pressure vents killed more people than they saved. It's more like they saved a small number of people from certain death. The people placed on high-pressure vents were done so mainly as a last resort, not to sound harsh but they were likely going to die anyway, so it was a hail marry shot.

I shouldn't have said private for profit. I should have just said private health systems. Regardless of for profit or non-profit they both operate on a make money model, they just spend it differently. The point was they spent money on everything but being prepared for what's been warned for decades as an almost certain event.