Early Muzzy season...could it be.....

[bowhunter1023]

how many deer should you see?

That is completely subjective and has no real answer, and I know you know this. I felt the 2007 season was the best I had. I was seeing a little more than 4-5 deer for every 3 hours on stand. I saw the most shooters I had seen since 2001 and witnessed a pretty strong rut. We also had great weather and I didn't have to deal with standing corn on any of the 4 places I hunted that year, so that helped without a doubt. I saw close to 300 deer in 175 hours on stand, most of those being contributed to some outstanding late season hunts where I was seeing 10+ deer in 2 hours on stand. That season, I witnessed 32 deer in a cut bean field on a mid-November hunt and saw 14 does in a single-file line on a mid-January hunt, easily the two best hunts I have ever had. My completely subjective opinion is I enjoy seeing 1 deer per hour on stand. Most of my hunts are 3 hours in length and I don't think it unreasonable to expect to see a doe with fawns on most of my hunts. When the rut rolls around and late season arrives, it will carry with it a higher percentage of deer seen per hour on stand. I feel the stretch from 2006-2008 was ideal...

 

[bowhunter1023]

It's all relative, brother.

I know this. I'm doing nothing more here than relating my own experiences. Yes, I am lucky/blessed/spoiled whatever you want to call it to live in SE Ohio and in one of the perennial top harvest counties in the state. I understand that some people live and hunt far shittier counties than mine. I also know people like JD, Mao, and Kaiser live in the fuggin' deer meccas, making Washington County look a wasteland. It is all relative, so remember I'm just relating what I know...

 

[Milo]

but the problem with 2006 through 2008 is the herd was unsustainable....that has to be realized... its not realistic...desirable yes....there is a reason every new tree in my yard has a cage around it.

 

[Buckmaster]

....there is a reason every new tree in my yard has a cage around it.

Funny, I just built 7 new cages last night and dropped them off at one of my lots this morning. I'm transplanting pear and apple trees on Thursday to make my future herd happy.

 

[Milo]

Funny, I just built 7 new cages last night and dropped them off at one of my lots this morning. I'm transplanting pear and apple trees on Thursday to make my future herd happy.

yep i have about 5 pear and 4 apple trees all caged up ....its a PITA...plus some persimmon.

 

[bowhunter1023]

but the problem with 2006 through 2008 is the herd was unsustainable....that has to be realized... its not realistic...desirable yes....there is a reason every new tree in my yard has a cage around it.

Your yard and the ground I hunted those years are hardly relatable in terms of "sustainable" deer numbers IMO. Never been to your house, but the habitat and hunting environment up there are night and day compared to down here. Surely you don't believe your house can handle what you farm can handle?!?

 

[Milo]

we have to cage our trees at the farm too. I would fathom to guess i have more deer here than at the farm..but where we are it does not get hunted as hard as probably your place. they are easier to get at down south than up here that is for sure. if you say they are not comparable then who's land should they be basing this entire proposal off of?

 

[bowhunter1023]

if you say they are not comparable then who's land should they be basing this entire proposal off of?

I support the idea of a county specific management plan, even in our county which has some drastically different terrain and hunting scenarios. Obviously you cannot point to a single piece of ground and say: "There. That piece is what the entire state needs to be..." I would support the DNR and the county WO holding county specific meetings to facilitate interaction between the real constituents and the powers that be. There are ways to implement a county specific plan and I'd be more than willing to become actively involved in seeing something like this come to fruition...

 

[Milo]

Again i will point to salt fork muzzy season. If we were seeing dramatic declines in deer herd numbers we would be seeing it in the park. that program used to be buck only(antler restriction believe it or not) and now it is open to everyone for the most part and includes does. If we are going to see a negative decline that place is going to show it...its been going on decades there

 

[jagermeister]

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hun...BuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx

Salt Fork State Park
year - total (antlerless)
2010 - 255 (106)
2009 - 273 (147)
2008 - 315 (196)
2007 - 138 (122)
2006 - 175 (152)
2005 - 107 (81)
2004 - 108 (0)
2003 - 85 (0)

Wildcat Hollow
year - total (antlerless)
2010 - 176 (75)
2009 - 174 (89)
2008 - 161 (100)
2007 - 98 (78)
2006 - 127 (106)
2005 - 82 (55)
2004 - 78 (0)
2003 - 72 (0)

Shawnee
year - total (antlerless)
2010 - 81 (26)
2009 - 44 (22)
2008 - 90 (47)
2007 - 38 (27)
2006 - 34 (31)
2005 - 27 (19)
2004 - 24 (0)
2003 - 20 (0)

 

[hickslawns]

Jesse- You are a passionate man. It is quite apparent you are frustrated. I think some of these things are not meant to be attacks on you personally. gern's comment irritated you. Darron's comment irritated me. I am over it. Everyone's opinion is specific to what they see in their area mainly. i am glad we all have strong feelings on these subjects. If we didn't, the ODNR would decimate the deer herd without anyone ever noticing. Let's come up with a game plan and collectively do something. What is the solution? Let's figure it out and implement it. You know my solution. Were it not for my buddy, I would probably be having a season similar to 2009 when I saw less than 40 deer all season. I am fortunate. I am still frustrated at the big picture though.

 

[Gern186]

So you are saying I should just suck it up and ignore the fact the deer herd on and surrounding my future inheritance is being pounded to the point of nothing?!? That I should just accept the fact that numbers have declined drastically since we bought it and it is not from over harvest on my part?You mentioned making improvements last night. Since the first corn purchase on June 3rd this year, I have spent over $1K on corn. My total bill on food plots this year was just over $475 and took up 30+ hours of my time. I'm doing what I can to make our property more attractive and it should result in increased sightings. But when there are less deer, it doesn't translate.

I understand changes in the local habitat, pressure, and certainly the weather can impact my sightings. What I want you all to understand is that I have been running 5 or more cameras for 5 years now and the camera data is really what has me up in arms right now. I need to go back and search through some old pictures, but I can easily document a decline in overall deer numbers since 2009 on our place and we have only killed 3 deer in that time.

I jumped all around the county this year hunting 4 different properties and have been road scouting a good bit this month. In addition to this, I talk to as many bowhunters as I can to see what their feedback is regarding deer movement. Two things you are most likely to hear from bowhunters in Washington County are: "I think the coyotes are killing a good bit of fawns..." and "You just don't see deer (in the fields) like you used to..." Some people will include the "in the fields" portion, while others will just say they are seeing less deer. I've talked to 30+ bowhunters this year and I'd say at least 25 of them have more negative things to say than positive about the season and the status quo down here. If I'm listening to Chad, we should all just pack up and abandon Washington County (our own home turf) and go somewhere to clog up the works...

Jesse,

You have had no problem killing deer in the past. You have plenty of pictures of plenty of deer. Don't tell me you can't kill a deer with all the opportunities you have. You can hunt virtually any time you want. Granted you can't control what the neighbors are doing but neither can anybody else. How many guys have you had down to your place and how many deer have they killed or wounded in the last few years? If you don't think having several different hunters in and out of your property during the season won't affect the numbers of deer you see then you need to rethink your strategies.

 

[huntn2]

Jesse- You are a passionate man. It is quite apparent you are frustrated. I think some of these things are not meant to be attacks on you personally. gern's comment irritated you. Darron's comment irritated me. I am over it. Everyone's opinion is specific to what they see in their area mainly. i am glad we all have strong feelings on these subjects. If we didn't, the ODNR would decimate the deer herd without anyone ever noticing. Let's come up with a game plan and collectively do something. What is the solution? Let's figure it out and implement it. You know my solution. Were it not for my buddy, I would probably be having a season similar to 2009 when I saw less than 40 deer all season. I am fortunate. I am still frustrated at the big picture though.

Perhaps we can revisit and expand on what has been shared here...

http://www.theohiooutdoors.com/showthread.php?5930-What-changes-if-any-to-the-Deer-regs-would-you-recommend-to-the-ODNR

Everyone on here is passionate about hunting and or fishing or they wouldn't visit and contribute.

In terms of 2008 era numbers not being sustainable, look at any Metro Park, urban area, Cuyahoga Valley National Park, etc. I am not being ignorant and thinking the deer densities per square mile in these areas are not taking a toll on the habitat. However, if the numbers in the CVNP are what they are and there is nothing done to thin the herd in those 36,000 acres, then there must be suitable habitat to sustain the population. Anyone of you guys are welcome to come take a drive with me and you would be astonished at the deer densities in some of the areas around me (no hunting urban and parkland). I lost count a few years ago of over 60 deer in 1 crp like suburban field. There is no way it is healthy for the herd and habitat to have deer densities I see. That said, these deer densities are the extreme outliers on the high side. If no action is taken for what I see, then I tend to think 2008 herd levels in more rural areas are indeed sustainable. Just my thoughts based on my observations.

I think the ODNR needs to adjust their focus and manage at a more micro level than is done today. I would like to see things managed at a county level to start. I would like to see them as Joe indicated, working to break down barriers where the population is growing out of control. I think we are masking the impact to the deer herd in the rural areas with the population booms taking place in urban areas.

 

[Jackalope]

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hun...BuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx

Salt Fork State Park
year - total (antlerless)
2010 - 255 (106)
2009 - 273 (147)
2008 - 315 (196)

2008-2010 DOWN 56%

Wildcat Hollow
year - total (antlerless)
2010 - 176 (75)
2009 - 174 (89)
2008 - 161 (100)

2008-2010 DOWN 25%


Shawnee
year - total (antlerless)
2010 - 81 (26)
2009 - 44 (22)
2008 - 90 (47)

2008-2010 DOWN 55%

nuff said

 

[bowhunter1023]

How many guys have you had down to your place and how many deer have they killed or wounded in the last few years? If you don't think having several different hunters in and out of your property during the season won't affect the numbers of deer you see then you need to rethink your strategies.

In 5 years of bringing people down, we have killed 4 deer from the farm and wounded one on the farm; while killing two behind my parents. This season has by far seen the lowest impact by hunters of any season yet. You make a valid point, but it is by no means the sole answer to what is going on and it is not the huge impact you think it might be...

 

[jagermeister]

nuff said

Not necessarily. You have to remember that, in that same time period, the DOW did away with the restrictions on early muzzy season buck tags. So, everyone was allowed to shoot bucks, instead of just a select number of buck permits. I'd be willing to bet that there were a lot of anterless deer that received a "free pass" because of this. There are a lot of factors involved, man. You can't just assume that a decrease in harvest total is a direct result of a decrease in deer numbers. I'd be curious to see the trend in hunters participating in these early muzzy hunts over the years as well.

 

[huntn2]

Not necessarily. You have to remember that, in that same time period, the DOW did away with the restrictions on early muzzy season buck tags. So, everyone was allowed to shoot bucks, instead of just a select number of buck permits. I'd be willing to bet that there were a lot of anterless deer that received a "free pass" because of this. There are a lot of factors involved, man. You can't just assume that a decrease in harvest total is a direct result of a decrease in deer numbers. I'd be curious to see the trend in hunters participating in these early muzzy hunts over the years as well.

Same arguement could be made when looking at the rise in deer harvest numbers...many factors could contribute other than just saying the herd is growing...

I have been saying that for a few years, but not just about special hunts. I would like to see the hunters by county to draw a better conclusion on the deer herd. All we know is permits filled by county...It would be far more telling to understand harvest based on number of hunters and permits taking to the woods in each county. Again, more of a micro managed philosophy than what is done today.

 

[jagermeister]

Same arguement could be made when looking at the rise in deer harvest numbers...many factors could contribute other than just saying the herd is growing...

I have been saying that for a few years, but not just about special hunts. I would like to see the hunters by county to draw a better conclusion on the deer herd. All we know is permits filled by county...It would be far more telling to understand harvest based on number of hunters and permits taking to the woods in each county. Again, more of a micro managed philosophy than what is done today.

I agree with you, dude. I just don't think Joe can be 100% sure the decrease in early muzzy antlerless harvest is correlated to a population decrease. His percentages don't reflect the total harvest, just the anterless harvest totals. Seems to support my idea that hunters are simply passing up anterless deer because they can....

 

[Dannmann801]

I just like hunting deer.
This is a good thread.

 

[Buckmaster]

Playing the devils advocate here....How would you feel about a buck only 2 day early muzzleloader season? That sounds more appealing to me.