The Future of Hunting in Ohio

[Hedgelj]

Even if you know where there are little pockets of higher deer numbers that doesn't mean you will be able to convince hunters there to kill more deer. Theres a reason certain areas have higher deer densities or lower numbers.

I still feel that to be able to get crop damage kill permits you need to show proof of hunter access.

Much of the deer density issues is lack of access imo.

 

[Jackalope]

I think the big deal is that Prions are scary as F$%k!

yep. Scary as fuck is even an understatement. If it was to cross the animal to human barrier it would make COVID look like, as Godo says, "Pussy shit bro"

 

[Tipmoose]

yep. Scary as fuck is even an understatement. If it was to cross the animal to human barrier it would make COVID look like, as Godo says, "Pussy shit bro"

The biggest impact would come from the reaction to it, not from the pathology. The number of people nationwide who eat deer meat is vanishingly small compared to the general population. The number of people who eat deer brains or spinal cord are even smaller.

In my opinion this entire CWD hysteria isn't a health issue. It's a money issue. Tons of money is pouring in and we are pulling a covid all over again.

It's my opinion that CWD has been part of the deer herd for many decades. It wasn't an issue until the fear mongering started.

 

[Big_Holla]

The biggest impact would come from the reaction to it, not from the pathology. The number of people nationwide who eat deer meat is vanishingly small compared to the general population. The number of people who eat deer brains or spinal cord are even smaller.

In my opinion this entire CWD hysteria isn't a health issue. It's a money issue. Tons of money is pouring in and we are pulling a covid all over again.

It's my opinion that CWD has been part of the deer herd for many decades. It wasn't an issue until the fear mongering started.

Agreed!

 

[Hedgelj]

yep. Scary as fuck is even an understatement. If it was to cross the animal to human barrier it would make COVID look like, as Godo says, "Pussy shit bro"

AGREED x1000

The biggest impact would come from the reaction to it, not from the pathology. The number of people nationwide who eat deer meat is vanishingly small compared to the general population. The number of people who eat deer brains or spinal cord are even smaller.

In my opinion this entire CWD hysteria isn't a health issue. It's a money issue. Tons of money is pouring in and we are pulling a covid all over again.

It's my opinion that CWD has been part of the deer herd for many decades. It wasn't an issue until the fear mongering started.

Prions and their diseases are entirely scary as F$$k. Look up Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, it's the human form of mad cow disease which are both caused by prions.

We don't know how they are formed or really how they work and we have NO way to disinfect contaminated areas from them. Literally the surgical tools are discarded after use on someone with it.

There was a extremely talented and personable (those two things do not always align) ortho spine surgeon in the Dayton area. He routinely did pro Bono and mission work. He unfortunately did a case on someone with this without anyone's knowing and died from exposure to it. It's a literal death sentence.

Now the debate on impact and how long is been there vs us just now figuring out out.... yeah but on seriousness it's up there in my book.

 

[Stressless]

The last wild deer disappeared from Ohio in wood county (in northwest Ohio) about 1895, from Jackson and Scioto counties (southern Ohio) in 1904(Stroll 2).

We unregulated folks killed ever single white tailed deer in the state, prior to any technology or even electricity.

The ODNR is a bloated bureaucratic organization by it's very nature. I do believe many of their good ideas and intentions at the mercy of maneuvering said bloated, multi-mastered and very unnimble SS-ODNR thru these rapidly changing technical times. Those same Technical means have to be mashed into the "Tradiation of Sportmanship". See the quote above.

 

[Jackalope]

The biggest impact would come from the reaction to it, not from the pathology. The number of people nationwide who eat deer meat is vanishingly small compared to the general population. The number of people who eat deer brains or spinal cord are even smaller.

In my opinion this entire CWD hysteria isn't a health issue. It's a money issue. Tons of money is pouring in and we are pulling a covid all over again.

It's my opinion that CWD has been part of the deer herd for many decades. It wasn't an issue until the fear mongering started.

Oh no buddy. It goes WAYYYYY deeper than just consuming an infected animal. It's a protein, the building block of life. The lifespan of the prion is completely unknown but it has been measured to endure 16 years outside a host and is indestructible with all but some really powerful solvents. Cooking doesn't even deteriorate it. Infected animals shed the protein through scat, saliva and natural shedding, which contaminates the soil. From there the prions are taken up by growing vegetation like grass as part of the nutrients it removes from the soil. From there consuming that vegetation is a proven transmission vector.

The human implications of that is astounding. from the dirt we live on, the food we consume, the way we dispose of waste. Science isn't sure if the prion can infect humans, but they state that it's highly probable it could. If it ever does, it's likely a humankind ending event, bar immediatly isolating and exterminating the infected, and restricting area acess for an unknown number of decades. Think Chernoble, but worldwide.

 

[Jackalope]

We unregulated folks killed ever single white tailed deer in the state, prior to any technology or even electricity.

At time when practically everyone hunted, people lived off the land, and grocery stores were quite sparse. The DOW could disappear tomorrow and barring a marketable whitetail based product to spur capitalism hunters would never eradicate deer in Ohio. Some areas like public land and heavily hunted parcels would suffer greatly, but the species would endure throughout the state on sprawling private and urban parcels. Hunters would surely screw themselves however. I would go so far as to say that eventually private landowners would realize the income potential of hunting and heavily managed leases and deer clubs full of deer would become even more of a thing. Not saying that's optimal, but when it comes to whitetails they're pretty embedded today vs days gone by.

 

[Jamie]

For anyone who thinks prions, Mad Cow disease, CWD, etc. are not worth being worried about, I would encourage you to read this book. VERY disconcerting.

 

[Tipmoose]

Oh no buddy. It goes WAYYYYY deeper than just consuming an infected animal. It's a protein, the building block of life. The lifespan of the prion is completely unknown but it has been measured to endure 16 years outside a host and is indestructible with all but some really powerful solvents. Cooking doesn't even deteriorate it. Infected animals shed the protein through scat, saliva and natural shedding, which contaminates the soil. From there the prions are taken up by growing vegetation like grass as part of the nutrients it removes from the soil. From there consuming that vegetation is a proven transmission vector.

The human implications of that is astounding. from the dirt we live on, the food we consume, the way we dispose of waste. Science isn't sure if the prion can infect humans, but they state that it's highly probable it could. If it ever does, it's likely a humankind ending event, bar immediatly isolating and exterminating the infected, and restricting area acess for an unknown number of decades. Think Chernoble, but worldwide.

I completely understand what you're saying and I understand how scary it looks. I have the highest respect for you and how you logically come at problems and risks. I just can't share that fear. Not yet.

Rather than hijack Jesse's thread, I'll wait for a dedicated prion thread.

 

[Mickey Merrie]

Ohio is destined to have CWD everywhere, it's just a matter of time. The biggest vector contributing to its spread to new areas is the movement of captive deer. Years ago I looked at the cases in Ohio and each in could be traced back to captive deer farms. Unfortunately captive deer are managed as livestock under the Department of Agriculture and the deer farms fought tooth and nail to keepmit that way and out from under the control of the DOW.

Identical issue in Pa.

 

[Big_Holla]

Follow Dr. Deer on FB, some interesting information often put up there on CWD.

 

[Lundy]

While I believe there are many well intentioned guys on here offering suggestions to improve the hunting that they experience or perceive them to be I am perplexed that many of the solutions being offered restrict hunter opportunity and access. There is small minority of involved and vocal hunters, all of you, that do not necessarily , and I would contend do not, represent the majority of hunters in Ohio.

The suggestions of restricting crossbows for hunters through use or season would only serve to reduce hunter opportunity. An opportunity that has been established in Ohio in excess of 25 years. I think we could all agree that restriction is not likely to occur and to me, should not occur. I am not inclined to try to gain at the expense of other hunters. I am sure many will say that the restricting crossbow use will not restrict hunter opportunity, that they could hunt with other means but that is just not rooted in reality.

Hunters have no voice in the leasing of property for hunting. The people that own the property have full rights and the only rights.

I do believe that outfitters and leasing companies should be highly regulated. I believe a fairly large portion of leased property reducing hunter access is related to outfitter and subsequent sub leasing. I don't believe the primary hunter access being curtailed from leasing problem is derived from Billy Bob leasing land from Peggy Sue

I have always been of the opinion that non resident license fees and tag access should be reciprocal to the state of residence of the hunter.

Hunters are only one part of the vested interest in the whitetail deer management in Ohio. Other vested interests, have larger financial interests, have larger voices and much more political influence that hunters, especially a non united group of hunters. Can you imagine the discord of trying to get a consensus from all deer hunters in the state of what they would like to see. Tell the largest bowhunter segment that you believe that crossbow use should be restricted, just imagine how well that will work to solidify a common voice and message. LOL. Heck all of you are some of the best informed and most passionate of the hunters in the state and even all of you can't agree on what course of action you would like to see implemented. At best hunters are just a tool used by the other vested interest groups to help achieve their goals.

The reality is I believe what you have today, with occasional minor adjustments, is what you will have going forward. It will never go back to what it once was and might even get a little worse in the future. However even today it still provides great deer hunting opportunities. I live in Florida now and drive through Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana and see these little scrawny excuses for a whitetail with 100" antlers that the locals think are pretty darn good.

Sometimes you might be too close to really see and appreciate what you have.

 

[LonewolfNopack]

Lundy,

You make many great points. One question I have for you is, do you think those other states you mention would have the same quality of bucks and hunting that Ohio does if their regulations were identical to Ohio? In my opinion Ohio is a state rich with resources, including a good mix of ag land, gently rolling hills and most importantly soil. We simply have a better ability to grow big deer then many of the states people are traveling from to hunt Ohio. I don't think we can place all the praise (or blame) solely on our states regulations. We have incredible resources here regardless of any regulations, and an accute ability to grow big deer. I do agree with pretty much every point you make. I also think it's reasonable for hunters to expect to have their voices paid attention to by the agency that represents them.

 

[Creamer]

What concerns me, personally, about the "we need more hunters" sentiments sort of parallels off of what Rex talked about some in that podcast. With land being bought up or leased out, pushing more and more hunters to public land, where the heck are all of these "more hunters" supposed to go? I have hunted primarily public ground for the last 6-7 years BECAUSE of being pushed out of ground by leasing and $$$. In that short period of time, I have seen pressure on my local public ground go way, way up. Those first few years, I knew if I got a mile or more back in off of the access points, I was not going to have to worry about seeing other hunters. That's not the case anymore. Lately, I can't get away from people. I get the idea of "more hunters is a good thing" in terms of having a voice, but where are they supposed to go and what kind of experience are they going to have? Being 100% transparent, dealing with all of the issues on public this year alone has decreased the amount of time I have spent in the woods. I just don't want to deal with it all the time. The experience has led me, someone who has hunted for 30 years in Ohio, to NOT be motivated to hunt. I'm looking forward to the late season on the hopes that the woods won't have as many humans in them. I can't imagine I am the only hunter who has or does feel this way, so is more hunters really a great thing? Or is it going to lead to worse experiences and actually losing or not retaining hunters?

The other thing, this notion of "we all need to stick together," I only partially agree with. Again, I understand the logic of it, but there's a lot of shitty hunter activity that is painting an ugly picture to non-hunters that gets plastered all over social media for attention. My humble opinion, that activity should not be supported, and I don't want myself associated with that kind of stuff. I'm talking about stuff like painting your face with deer blood for photos. Using dead animals as props. Holding a dead duck in your teeth for social media pics. Filming yourself rolling a headless elk down a hill. Hunting "celebrities" of social media with poaching and wildlife violations history (I'm looking at you, Bowmars, among others). I've seen all of that stuff posted in public on social media. If you think this sort of garbage has no negative impact on non-hunters perceptions of us, I think you're wrong. I will refuse to support that crap in any way and think it should be called out instead of supported.

I'll stop talking now. Again, I tried to be as respectful as possible.

 

[The Ghost of mrex]

Mike Tonkovich made published comments just this fall about exploring a 2 buck bag limit in Ohio with a second earn a buck.

I can’t ever see that happening.

While I believe there are many well intentioned guys on here offering suggestions to improve the hunting experience that they experience or perceive them to be I am perplexed that many of the solutions being offered restrict hunter opportunity and access. There is small minority of involved and vocal hunters, all of you, that do not necessarily , and I would contend do not, represent the majority of hunters in Ohio.

The suggestions of restricting crossbows for hunters through use or season would only serve to reduce hunter opportunity. An opportunity that has been established in Ohio in excess of 25 years. I think we could all agree that restriction is not likely to occur and to me, should not occur. I am not inclined to try to gain at the expense of other hunters. I am sure many will say that the restricting crossbow use will not restrict hunter opportunity, that they could hunt with other means but that is just not rooted in reality.

Hunters have no voice in the leasing of property for hunting. The people that own the property have full rights and the only rights.

I do believe that outfitters and leasing companies should highly regulated. I believe a fairly large portion of leased property reducing hunter access is related to outfitter and subsequent sub leasing. I don't believe the primary hunter access being curtailed from leasing problem is derived from Billy Bob leasing land from Peggy Sue

I have always been of the opinion that non resident license fees and tag access should be reciprocal to the state of residence of the hunter.

Hunters are only one part of the vested interest in the whitetail deer management in Ohio. Other vested interests, have larger financial interests, have larger voices and much more political influence that hunters, especially a non united group of hunters. Can you imagine the discord of trying to get a consensus from all deer hunters in the state of what they would like to see. Tell the largest bowhunter segment that you believe that crossbow use should be restricted, just imagine how well that will work to solidify a common voice and message. LOL. Heck all of you are some of the best informed and most passionate of the hunters in the state and even all of you can't agree on what course of action you would like to see implemented. At best hunters are just a tool used by the other vested interest groups to help achieve their goals.

The reality is I believe what you have today, with occasional minor adjustments, is what you will have going forward. It will never go back to what it once was and might even get a little worse in the future. However even today it still provides great deer hunting hunting opportunities. I live in Florida now and drive through Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana and see these little scrawny excuses for a whitetail with 100" antlers that the locals think are pretty darn good.

Sometimes you might be too close to really see and appreciate what you have.

Words from a guy who’s been around a while and paid attention. Great post Kim!

 

[LonewolfNopack]

Great points Creamer. I've always said what good is opportunity if it's not good opportunity. I'd gladly sit out every other year on public land if it meant a higher quality opportunity once I finally got a chance to hunt. Look at our Western states as an example, and even some eastern states. I really don't care if our public land in Ohio is better then Michigan's etc... I know that it can and should be better with more restrictive regulations, and yes that means less people in the woods. Im personally fine with that. I also think it's going to be hard to retain hunters if they don't ever have the opportunity to experience a true quality hunt. You've hunted for over 30 years and are already feeling less motivated to hunt public. I stopped deer and turkey hunting public as well for the same reasons after hunting it almost exclusively for most of my life. I understand both sides of the discussion here and think it's a true conundrum.

 

[The Ghost of mrex]

What concerns me, personally, about the "we need more hunters" sentiments sort of parallels off of what Rex talked about some in that podcast. With land being bought up or leased out, pushing more and more hunters to public land, where the heck are all of these "more hunters" supposed to go? I have hunted primarily public ground for the last 6-7 years BECAUSE of being pushed out of ground by leasing and $$$. In that short period of time, I have seen pressure on my local public ground go way, way up. Those first few years, I knew if I got a mile or more back in off of the access points, I was not going to have to worry about seeing other hunters. That's not the case anymore. Lately, I can't get away from people. I get the idea of "more hunters is a good thing" in terms of having a voice, but where are they supposed to go and what kind of experience are they going to have?

The other thing, this notion of "we all need to stick together," I only partially agree with. Again, I understand the logic of it, but there's a lot of shitty hunter activity that is painting an ugly picture to non-hunters that gets plastered all over social media for attention. My humble opinion, that activity should not be supported, and I don't want myself associated with that kind of stuff. I'm talking about stuff like painting your face with deer blood for photos. Using dead animals as props. Holding a dead duck in your teeth for social media pics. Filming yourself rolling a headless elk down a hill. Hunting "celebrities" of social media with poaching and wildlife violations history (I'm looking at you, Bowmars, among others). I've seen all of that stuff posted in public on social media. If you think this sort of garbage has no negative impact on non-hunters perceptions of us, I think you're wrong. I will refuse to support that crap in any way and think it should be called out instead of supported.

I'll stop talking now. Again, I tried to be as respectful as possible.

Good points Creamer.

 

[LonewolfNopack]

I can’t ever see that happening.

 

[Lundy]

One question I have for you is, do you think those other states you mention would have the same quality of bucks and hunting that Ohio does if their regulations were identical to Ohio?

No not all, The deer are different and lack body mass for sure. I don't even know if they have the capacity to grow antlers like are prevalent in the farm belt states of the north.

The deer where I live in the Florida panhandle are all carrying little basket racks, I have looked on the social media sites and the ones they get excited about down here are little 8's with a 14" spread and 4" G2's. It is just different hunting and average quality of the deer is not even in the same realm and I don't think it ever could be.

I took customers on a hunt to Texas last week. In parts of Texas they do have some large impressive antlers but where we were SW on San Antonio there are bucks all over the place and a really big body is maybe 100-110lbs dressed and a really solid 5-1/2 year old 10 will score in the 130's. Living my entire life in Ohio it is still difficult to adjust to how large the antlers on these Texas bucks look but it is only because their bodies are so small.